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Member converts to Bio-diesel

nathanrobo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
655
I thought this might be an interesting thread for other LC owners, since the stupidly high cost of fuel impacts Cruiser owners more than most other drivers:

As many know I've been producing my own Biodiesel for the last more than five years. When I started it was still a largely experimental fuel and methods of production were a bit crude in comparison. Thanks to the collaboration of a number of enthusiasts (professional bio producers, chemists, engineers and home brewers) who have been prepared to think and experiment, then share results, it is now very easy to produce great fuel easily at home.

I loaned Karl my processor
Biodplant.jpg


and polishing kit, basically centrifuge and polishing pots (in the pic are HMPE's that drop out of the fuel at cold temps in the winter
Chadshmpecake.jpg


The plan is that Karl will convert his veg oil, try out the process and see what he thinks before taking the next step (building or buying a processor) and return the processor in the next couple of months before I run out of fuel.

Hopefully Karl will chime in a little later this week once he has things set up, to give a commentary on his experience.

Enjoy & feel free to ask questions.
 
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From right to left there is a straining / dewatering tank, the processor in the middle and the wash / dry / polishing tank with the centrifuges on the top. This can all be done in one tank, but I find it easier to make a few batches in a continuous fashion and then not do anything for a few months.

The government used to charge duty on each litre, but due to the cost of collecting the duty, they now allow 2500 litres per household duty free. You need to keep a record of each batch produced and provide your oil suppliers with a Waste Transfer note. Oil is a little harder to come by now, but if you are persistent, friendly and provide the WTN along with clean exchange containers on each collection, you can get the feedstock, usually for between 10 & 25p per litre at the worst. Production costs including energy will be around 15 pence. Including feedstock expect your costs to be 25 - 40p per litre.

The maximum production size per batch is 250 litres. My batch sizes are 180 litres - obviously the bigger the batch the less effort per litre.
 
Hi Nathan. Didnt realise you were posting so soon.

Well not long been home. Great guy to have finally met after a good few long chats regarding The fuel in question.

Alot know that i have been running on (WVO) waste veg oil on and off for some time. I really have saved loads of money on fuel in the time doing it. I used to run the two tank system on my personal trucks that worked well and allowed me to used wvo t 10ppl.

I broke the truck i had the kit on nd ever since i hve been adding 50/50 oil to diesel when i can. The issue i found with this is i have had my sump fill with unburnt cooking oil in every car that it has been added to.

I brought my Black 80 in november and it has only seen white diesel. oct fuel bill was over 700 and last month over 600. I didnt want to do the cooking oil thing with the new one unless it had the twin tank and was done properly.

So, where we are now is. As Nathan said he has lent me the bio plant and im going to start producing. TBH it has always put me off with what i thought was involved and the time take to do the process. So as i start to produce i will try and update to how easy or hard it is and give details on how we get on. Im sure there will be lots of imput from nathan as if it wasnt for him im sure i would have never even given it a go.
 
Great thread. :clap:

Looking forward to seeing how you get on Karl. :thumbup:

To me it looks quite complicated with the maze of pipes and tubes. :?
 
That was my exact view ben thats why i have kept well away in the past.

At least with this thread if i find it easy then mabe it will help other people pockets.
 
To me it looks quite complicated with the maze of pipes and tubes. :?

I might have made it look over complicated by building the process into three tanks, where one could have done the job (most brewers only have the centre tank). But basically the tanks are only:

Heating the oil (immersion heater element)
Mixing with a pump & diffuser (that's most of the pipework)
Drawing chems in (can be done on suction side of the pump or using a venturi in the pipework)
Draining off Glycerin
Using a spray bar ring for drying
Centrifuge and Polishing pots for purification to 0.3 microns
 
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That's really interesting - been reading up some of the links on your sig and quite keen to give it a try myself.

Any advances on how to prevent polymerisation?
 
The main thing that puts me off making bio is sourcing the used oil.

I asked 20-30 places for oil and they all said they already had some one collecting and buying it from them. :thumbdown:

I dont think it helps that bookers and other cash n carries where people buy their new oil, have signs up next to the new oil saying they will buy back the oil once its been used. :think:

Theirs also a number of companies who go around collecting and buying the used oil.

Regarding the waste transfer notice...........................

I'm guessing that means you have to have a waste carries license?

Are they easy to get? if so how much do they cost?

I think the idea is great. :clap:

Especially the 20-40p per litre for the finished fuel. :icon-biggrin:

I could live with the mess of it all, and also the time it takes to collect the used oil and then turn it into fuel. Its just sourcing the oil which proved tricky/impossible for me.

I know theirs loads of people selling used oil on ebay, but I think its far too easy for people to mix it with water and double their profits, a bit like drug dealers cutting powder based narcotics. :?
 
That's really interesting - been reading up some of the links on your sig and quite keen to give it a try myself.

Any advances on how to prevent polymerisation?

You won't see polymerisation (ring gumming as a result of Bio), however overheating the bio in the drying phase can cause some polymerisation in the bio itself, but burning this will not polymerise engine components AFAiK. In anycase there's no need to take it higher than 70 degrees during and after water washing.
 
Great thread.

A couple of questions:

Karl - you mention cooking oil in the sump? As that is on the wet side of the engine, and the fuel is going into the combustion chamber on the other side, how is it getting into the sump - past the piston rings?

Nathan - so polymerisation relates to using unused veg oil rather than bio? or WVO that has just been squeezed through a filter?

Pete
 
The main thing that puts me off making bio is sourcing the used oil.


I asked 20-30 places for oil and they all said they already had some one collecting and buying it from them. :thumbdown:

I dont think it helps that bookers and other cash n carries where people buy their new oil, have signs up next to the new oil saying they will buy back the oil once its been used. :think:

Theirs also a number of companies who go around collecting and buying the used oil.

Regarding the waste transfer notice...........................

I'm guessing that means you have to have a waste carries license?

Are they easy to get? if so how much do they cost?

I think the idea is great. :clap:

Especially the 20-40p per litre for the finished fuel. :icon-biggrin:

I could live with the mess of it all, and also the time it takes to collect the used oil and then turn it into fuel. Its just sourcing the oil which proved tricky/impossible for me.

I know theirs loads of people selling used oil on ebay, but I think its far too easy for people to mix it with water and double their profits, a bit like drug dealers cutting powder based narcotics. :?

Sourcing oil can be a problem, you need to be persistent and build relationships and offer clean exchange containers. We've always managed to replace any lost collections and pay between nothing and 25p per litre. Mostly it's free or 10ppl

The big boys do an awful job, so restaurants will often switch - plus not all restaurants buy from Bookers etc and many see through the fact that bookers have jacked up the price only to discount it for the oil back. And in the big scheme of things a fiver once every couple of weeks is neither here nor there for any decent restaurant, they've bigger fish to fry (if you'll excuse the pun).

The waste transfer not is on the exempt scheme for small producers (under 2500 litres per year), so no licence required. When I contacted the Environment Agency 5 years ago, it took some real effort to get the guy on the phone to record my name / address etc. I guess since they stopped collecting duty from home brewers, it's work load for no reward!

Ref the mess and the time. If you organise your space properly, with a little bund tray beneath the processor it should remain tidy enough (the only time I made a mess was when my garden turned into the battle of the somme with building work going on, which got trampled into the shed and it all went down hill from there). But for most of the five years, it's been a fairly tidy / organised process. Ref collections, I go out 2 - 3 times a month and collect a number of places which is all that is required for your 2500 limit. Using 60 litre clamp lid drums helps!

Ref the Ebay boys, leave them alone, they're a nightmare! I know a number of people who have set up websites offering oil collection and it's worked a treat!

Places to try include:

Any kind of restaurant
Police Canteens
Sikh or Hindu temples
School / college canteens
Hotels (small independent)
Pubs
Hospitals
Old folks homes
Mobile catering units (including dinky donuts)
 
Great thread.

A couple of questions:

Nathan - so polymerisation relates to using unused veg oil rather than bio? or WVO that has just been squeezed through a filter?

Pete

Mate, polymerisation of oil is to do with the reaction between the oil, oxygen (probably rapid oxidisation - as happens when burning) and a metal. The resulting bonds are cross linked polymers (or a plastic like coating). They appear to be worst in WVO than virgin oil, probably as a result of the FFA's created (I'm assuming that mono-glycerides / di-glycerides are also present).

The resulting compound (methyl ester) that results from reacting the Fatty Acid with Methanol doesn't seem to create ring gumming, in fact just the opposite, assuming that it's of good quality (low soaps, low glycerin, low moisture content, low methanol content) bio should run much cleaner.

Btw you don't need to get too hung up on the chemistry or the quality measures, if you follow tried and tested methods and simple tests you'll produce great fuel.
 
Ok, so it's not polymerising in the tank and gumming up filters/injectors then? That's my only concern at the moment.I've been looking at what space I've got, and I'm thinking about making a 24V system and running some solar panels/wind turbine on the roof of my garage and storing the charge in some old batteries I've been reconditioning - I'm just modelling the energy storage capacity of my system against the projected energy costs of the reactors/pumps/heaters etc, I may need a few more batteries, but I'm looking at a capacity of 250-300L per month with no grid electrical cost
 
Great thread.

A couple of questions:

Karl - you mention cooking oil in the sump? As that is on the wet side of the engine, and the fuel is going into the combustion chamber on the other side, how is it getting into the sump - past the piston rings?

Nathan - so polymerisation relates to using unused veg oil rather than bio? or WVO that has just been squeezed through a filter?

Pete

Hi Pete

From what i understand the hotter you can get the cooking oil before it goes into the fuel pump then the chamber the better it will burn. When running 50/50 and starting from cold the oil wont burn the same and yes it gets past the rings. Any fuel in and diesel will warm up as it has a return back to the tank. It wont warm up enough though. Thats why two tanks are used.

I think im right with the above.
 
Ok, so it's not polymerising in the tank and gumming up filters/injectors then? That's my only concern at the moment.I've been looking at what space I've got, and I'm thinking about making a 24V system and running some solar panels/wind turbine on the roof of my garage and storing the charge in some old batteries I've been reconditioning - I'm just modelling the energy storage capacity of my system against the projected energy costs of the reactors/pumps/heaters etc, I may need a few more batteries, but I'm looking at a capacity of 250-300L per month with no grid electrical cost

I know of folk that are doing this using solar. Not sure about the actual energy units used. The pumps would typically be 0.37 Kw (1/3hp), the heater element would be 3kw if using an immersion, but some use a double wall cone in the bottom of the conical tank with hot water running through it, I guess from their central heating system. If your heating is off grid you could do this.

Here's a break down of the process timings - perhaps you could estimate energy requirements:
Heat oil to 70 deg approx 90 mins
Pump on for 5 mins settle and allow to cool

After running water off heat oil again to 70 deg apprx 90 mins.
Pull in methox and run pump for 90 mins
Allow glyc to settle
Draw in 2nd dose and run pump for 45 mins

Allow glycerin to settle
Draw in vinegar for 10 mins with pump

Wash process
Draw in water with pump and mix for mins 20 mins
allow to settle for water to separate
do this 3 times

Drying
heat to 70 deg then run pump for one hour to dry

Polishing
Run gear pump with centrifuge (also 0.37kw) for 2 hours

Done!
 
Ok, so I'm assuming that you only run the heater during the cycles you've said (I'm taking a worst case running the heater flat out for the durations you've mentioned - I imagine it'll probably be flat out during warm up then on a 20% duty cycle maintaining heat) and you're looking at 52MJ of energy to convert a batch - of course if your container is thermally efficient, then you'll not lose much heat so won't need to use all of that, and the pump will only draw up to it's rated load and that's going to be based on the pressure head it has to maintain - likely you're not using it at 100% of it's capacity, so real life figures I would expect to be better than this, but for the purposes of the model, it gives a nice figure to work from....

So in terms of KWHours that's 14.405KWh, and at 6p per KWh you're looking at £0.85p per batch

For a 24V system (truck alternator, truck batteries etc) then 600AH of capacity required ... hmmm, I've got around 2500AH of capacity in 12V car batteries laying around my garage and a 5kW wind turbine would store enough energy to repeat the process 600 times over.... solar power would be pretty effective as well....

3Kw is a pretty serious heater and at 24V that's drawing 125A - some serious cabling required for that, given the cost of investment in photovoltaics and/or wind turbine, it'll be cheaper to do it on the grid unless you're going off grid anyway

Thanks for the info - this is mainly for my own musings :)
 
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For £1.00 energy costs a batch, would you be really bothered about the cost?

In Nathanrobo's post #2, he indicates his typical batch size is 180 liters, with a maximum batch size of 250 liters.

Using £1.00 for energy, or there about's for processing 180 liters of fuel, is almost so small, not even to be considered, it's so small.

Gra.
 
Myself and Nathan had the conversation regarding the grid cost the other night Graham and your right. Toatal cost for the fuel including electric is around 25ppl. Im paying around £1.40 pl so the grid cost i nothing at all.
 
When the bio is all washed and clean, how suitable would it be for a 120 diesel ie, the common rail 1KD-FTV (D4-d) engine?

Gra.
 
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