Court Fiasco

Court & Insurance Fiasco

So my cruiser has been fully taxed and insured whilst in the UK and whilst being driven on UK roads.

In June 2012 I ship the vehicle (fully insured) to Africa on a Carnet. The vehicle is insured in the UK and on the ship. It also has a valid RFL to Feb 2013.

In July I am informed by my insurer that as the vehicle is now outside of European jurisdiction, they will no longer insure the vehicle.

In July the vehicle arrives in SA. Despite repeated attempts, thorough contacts in the Insurance industry, no insurer in SA will insure a foreign registered vehicle on a temp Carnet. (Insurance is not mandatory in SA).

In August I cancel my UK insurance as I am not covered in the UK or in Africa and I inform DVLA vehicle is in Africa on carnet.

In November I get a notice of intended prosecution for having a non-insured vehicle.

I write to the DVLA with copies of bill of lading, customs clearance, and signed and stamped carnet, together with letter from insurers telling me vehicle cannot be insured.... besides the vehicle is not being driven on UK roads. End of story me thinks.

Oh no, DVLA decide to continue with prosecution and levy a £1,000 fine for no insurance..... or I can plead guilty and pay a £250 fine now.

I repeat response... No joy.

Court date set...for Feb. Appear in court with all documents and explain the situation.

I explain vehicle is NOT in the UK and hasn't been on UK roads since June 2012.... court says NO... vehicle must be insured... try to explain again.... court says no vehicle must be insured....

Refuse to accept the decision as its absurd, protest I .

Told vehicle must be insured even if it's not in the UK and not being driven on UK roads.
Explain that NO insurer will insure a UK vehicle that is in SA... you guessed it... court says NO, vehicle must be insured.

I challenge the court then to provide details of a UK insurer, that will insure the vehicle in the UK whilst said vehicle is in SA and I'll happily oblige. Much deliberation between magistrates and the J.C.

Case adjourned to today.

Appear in court with written testament, and as a professional witness, the head of a LLoyds syndicate.

Court still says NO... vehicle must be insured or exported PERMANENTLY. Fine however reduced to £50!

On leaving the court, I am informed that if I declare the vehicle as SORN then I will not have to insure it, or export it permanently!!!!!!

What a complete waste of my time and public money...But of course I own my own home, I pay lots of tax, obey the law, am easily traceable and therefore and easy target to pursue for money.

Bunch of Buffoons !

That just epitomizes everything that is bad about this country!

Doesn't it make you want to scream? We managed it with the bikes by simply not telling anyone and then riding off into the sunset

Scream indeed !!

Ahh, first mistake was in thinking that you'd get justice in a court. Second problem was that it was a Magistrate's court.

Now, if you had gone to the the DVLA and said, I want to SORN this, but really I am taking it out of the country on a holiday, they'd have said Oh no you can't do that. It has to be SORN and HERE.
One or two people have fallen foul of the fairly recent changes in the UK that say a vehicle must be insured unless SORN even if it is on PRIVATE land.


It don't make no sense.

So is it finally resolved then Lazz?

C

Well I have now declared it SORN, so we will see. Next thing I suspect is that I'll get a NIP for an expired RFL!

The system here in the UK works perfectly well as long as you don't actually want anything from it. Then it goes all t**s up.

C

Whats made be boil, is that I actually informed the DVLA in August and in writing. Not even the courtesy of a reply from them.. Oh yes, they acknowledged that they had indeed received my letter!

Still, they must be feeling very proud of themselves.... caught another criminal, insurance dodger.

The system makes no sense at all. In Ireland you can have as many cars lying around as you want and as many tax books in your name or anyone elses. I had over a dozen at one time, actually have about 20 tax books in a drawer here, problem is finding the one that I want when I need one! Who are you harming by having a few parts cars? This is the sort of crap I detest about Western Europe as a whole, seems to be a case of making as many new laws and regulations as possible to give jobs to half wits and losers enforcing them.

My grandfather was a judge in the UK, I remember him telling me in the 1980's that more pages of law had been enacted since WW2 than from the magna carta until 1939. And that is pretty much before all the European nonsense came along too.

This insurance business is relatively recent - last couple of years iirc.

You are also likely to have probelms with road tax, which is impossible to pay if the vehicle is out of the country because you need a valid MOT, which can only be obtained if the vehicle is in the UK ...

This is a topic that has been discussed at length by overlanders on the HUBB as it there is no proper provision for vehicles out of the country for prolonged periods of time. The general consensus seems to be keep your head down and SORN the vehicle, and then to sort out the paper work as soon as the vehicle returns to the UK.

What bugs me is that Ignorance is not an acceptable defence. I am not a solicitor, lawyer or a Judge so how on earth am I supposed to keep up with all of this. I was done 3 years ago for aiding and abetting a disqualified driver.

I had bought a motor for parts and it had been dropped off at my house on a flatbed. After a week or so I needed it at my Dads house 300 yrds down the road so I hooked a tow rope up and little brother steered it down the street as I pulled it. He was on a ban at the time (got done for drink driving 1 point over the limit the day after a party at our house, I guess the bright orange Ford Probe was just too much for the old bill to pass by). Got stopped and asked a few questions then carted off to cells for 7 hours.

I found out after the fact that my brothers 2 year old could have been steering the towed car and all would have been fine. What a Joke!!!

Sorry if a little off topic

Chris

On the theme of slightly off topic, but prompted by your points about how the hell are you supposed to know - I wrote to HMRC last month 'fessing up that completely through honest mistake I had not declared some additional taxable income. Like, well, forever. As I am PAYE I don't fill in a tax return and I assumed that the bank took tax at source on my dividends and interest. Err, they do Mr Chris, but only at the basic rate. You have to declare the rest you naughty chap.

Damn.

I submitted all my evidence prepared for a big tax bill and waited .........


1 week later?





A cheque for £59 and an apology for them taking too much tax off me all these years!! Right, I guess we'll call that one quits then.

C

And just for the record on that count, if your driving a UK reg in the Republic of Ireland for example, so long as its insured tax and MOT are irrelevant, they are outside the jurisdiction of a foreign government. Different if the vehicle is not roadworthy such as bald tyres or no lights say. Know this from experience because I happened to meet one particular tool of a cop in a UK car who tried his hardest to do me for something whan I got stroppy about taking a breathalyser for no reason. Only thing he could find was no tax disc displayed but his buddy told him he just couldn't do me for that.

The DVLA couldn't find their own arse with a map, compass, GPS and Sherpa Tensing to guide them.

They kicked off about a "discrepancy with the chassis number" when we exported my dad's Weapons Carrier to his place in Italy, and demanded to inspect the vehicle. All despite the fact that they'd already issued the export papers, the vehicle was now 1000 miles away and the Italians had already issued registration papers. Unsurprisingly they were told to go swing.

Not to mention the whole "we don't make mistakes" arrogance when they were proven to be repeatedly incorrectly removing motorcycle categories from people's licences at renewal time.

I know some guys who work a good chunk of the year in France, and have the mission of insuring their cars there. Most have found a French insurer who will cover their UK registered car, and get a CT for it.

The madness is that the UK insurers insist on only covering your car for a very limited period of time in the EU, even though you can spend upto 6 months at a time on your UK plates there... just look at the number of CZ and PL cars here... only supposed to be here for 6 months before they go over to a UK reg plate etc, but they never do.

I've been trying to find the law (or parts of law) covering continuous insurance enforcement, I eventually found it - the "Road Safety Act 2006" is what introduced the changes to the law, by modifying the road traffic act. The specific area is in section 144, which says "you're guilty of an offence if you're the registered keeper of a vehicle, and it's not insured" then goes on to say in 144B you're not guilty if you match up to any of the following conditions:

Road Traffic Act 1988 said:

(5) The fourth condition is that—

(a)the registered keeper is at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle,

(b)at the relevant time the vehicle is not used on a road or other public place, and

(c)the registered keeper has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under subsection (7)(a) below that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.

Click to expand...

And section 7 a is about providing necessary documentation to prove your point.

I should say that the SORN document is taken as a recognised declaration that you're not using the car on the road, but your bills of lading etc should be equally valid, the key part is that section 7 is not specific about the particulars that must be supplied as proof. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be point that out to whoever's acting in my defense

You have my sympathies, I'd fight it on general principle, then when they get arsey about it, right something inflammatory to the papers!

A bit late for this Lazz, but are you in the AA? I was very surprised many moons ago that they provide you with free legal representation for any vehicle related prosecution and they provided me with an extremely capable lawyer.

Does this mean what I think it does, that if you run a car, taxed and insured, then you park it off the highway on private property, don't use it and let the tax and insurance expire, you're committing an offence? Pardon my ignorance, but I've been out of the UK since 2001 so I'm not up to speed with the changes.

Paddler Ed said:

I know some guys who work a good chunk of the year in France, and have the mission of insuring their cars there. Most have found a French insurer who will cover their UK registered car, and get a CT for it.

The madness is that the UK insurers insist on only covering your car for a very limited period of time in the EU, even though you can spend upto 6 months at a time on your UK plates there... just look at the number of CZ and PL cars here... only supposed to be here for 6 months before they go over to a UK reg plate etc, but they never do.

Click to expand...

Blimey, dont start that war! Over here lots of perminent resident ex pats, still drive their UK reg cars. Very few ever go back for an MOT and few have road tax. If you are resident you have 6m to change your registration to French. Yes French companies will insure a UK reg car, but buried in the small print is the 6m rule. However they do re-insure year after year - until there is an accident. The driver could then pay thousands every year in compensation. Builders are the best - Tranny Vans with wings falling off and holes everywhere, no tax, no MOT & probably no insurance!
I am a good boy and have done it all properly, and have had no problems to date.....
Steve

clivehorridge said:

A bit late for this Lazz, but are you in the AA? I was very surprised many moons ago that they provide you with free legal representation for any vehicle related prosecution and they provided me with an extremely capable lawyer.

Does this mean what I think it does, that if you run a car, taxed and insured, then you park it off the highway on private property, don't use it and let the tax and insurance expire, you're committing an offence? Pardon my ignorance, but I've been out of the UK since 2001 so I'm not up to speed with the changes.

Click to expand...

Over here in Froggy land ANY motorised vehicle has to be insured - even if its dead without an engine - someone could steel it, and kill someone else with it - this would be your fault......my tractor (never goes on the road) my Iseki Mower (never goes on road - well sometimes but dont tell anyone cos it runs on red) are all insured. The only way out of this is scrapping it - even when you sell it you have to get a proof of sale doc. to prove you no longer own it and can then cancel the insurance.....
Steve