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80 Series Landcruiser Design Floor in petrol engines?

grantw

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Has any one came across this before?
This is all from:
http://nvsr.com.au/articles/article8.html

The following is a letter relating to a design floor in the 80 Series Landcruiser's Cooling / Lubrication system as identified by my father (Roy Edgar). Having an Engineering background meant that "when he found an inexplicable problem he had to find an explanation".
The problem was that his engine blew-up due to the conversion of Oil into Bitumen! Some people haved described the substance as sludge but it was definitely a Bitumen like material. After doing some online research he found that many people around the world had the same problem and nobody could figure out why.
Dad stripped the engine down to the last nut and bolt and made a few discoveries that alarmed him greatly. The conclusion was that the 80 Series Petrol LandCruiser had an inherent design floor and that people all over the world were driving vehicles destined to fail. These ticking time bombs are going to cost motorists thousands of dollars in repair bills and in most cases repairs are done without addressing the root cause - meaning the same thing will happen again eventually.
Dad passed away on the 20th of April 2013 and the letter below was sent to Norris Schleeter and published on his web site.
[h=3]The letter unedited - including grammatical errors.[/h]I wish I had stumbled across your brilliantly informative site much earlier. However, I have been carefully studying the failure of my 1997 LandCruiser engine (135,000 Klms/around 85,000miles) for over a year and I have derived information that I trust you'll find useful, even though it is at odds with some of the underlying assumptions of your work on "sludge". By the way, in parlance I am more accustomed to and from my experience pre-PCV systems and detergent/dispersancy factors in motor oils, "sludge" is a combination of soot (from blow by) and moisture and it gathers in the sump as grey to black muck that can be readily washed out with kerosene. It is nothing like the material that accumulated in my engine.
The material that caused my engine to fail proved to be "Bitumen" (yep, the type of material that road surfaces are made from) and definitely not sludge in the my traditionally understood sense.
It was not formed through chemical interactions and was not caused by poor maintenance. It had nothing to do with ash content, soot, or moisture. Moreover it formed from pyrolization of the organic fractions remaining in the base oil from the refining process.
The oil mist generated by the moving parts smoked off on contact with excessively hot surfaces within the crankcase and rose within the engine internals to condense as bitumen on cooler internal surfaces (e.g. cam cover and timing chain cover, and that which passed through the PCV valve condensed on the inner surfaces of the inlet manifold and that found its way down to coke up the inlet valves). It had nothing to do with the efficacy of the PCV system or any other contaminants.
One of the tests I did with thermo couples showed that a thin film of the oil I was using will smoke off a 140 degrees Celsius metal surface. (This is not the same as Flash Point). Bearing in mind that the usual coolant mix under pressurization can reach more than 130 degrees Celsius without boiling, it doesn't take much for the internals of the crankcase to exceed 140 Degrees under some operating conditions if the cooling system and temperature sensing system isn't up to the job and allows heat soak build up without temp gauge indication.
As it turns out, the evidence overwhelmingly and irrefutably shows that the block has been operating at excessive temperatures because the cooling system cannot transfer the full potential heat load up via the cylinder head through the thermostat and radiator for cooling.
The mass and surface areas of the aluminium cylinder head, cam cover and inlet manifold do a magnificent job of dissipating the heat they receive so the thermostat and bypass system stay nicely in equilibrium. Accordingly, the temperature sensing system gauge never varies from central despite the raging heat soak accumulation in the block below. Ergo, everything seems rosy to the driver and yet inside the engine can be dense clouds of smoke rising to condense as bitumen.
It didn't take me long to find that this seems to be a widely present phenomena in a a range of manufacturers' engines (but not all).
Based on the evidence, faulty cooling system design and manufacture is key to the problem as it affected me. And I reckon like problems underpin the scourge of so called "sludge" affecting many engine types.
In mine,
a. Coolant flow is severely restricted by inadequate porting through the head gasket. The sum of the areas of all of the gasket flow ports is less than the area of the pump output throat. Furthermore, the surface friction effect of all of the small holes through the gasket compared to that of the pump output throat, is about 4:1 against the flow. Hence the action of the pump is severely hampered and cavitation is inevitable (plenty of physical evidence of cavitation). and also;
b. the outflow ducting from the pump and its interface with the port into the block, have a number of significant sharp edge protrusions interfering with the path of the coolant flow. Cavitation and major bubble formation is thus further exacerbated.
To make matters worse, the occurrence of bitumen is cumulative and cannot be removed by any amount of routine servicing or flushing without removal of the sump.
The problem here is defective design. The sump drain plug is positioned well above the lowest point. Thus the sump cannot be properly drained. Interestingly, the oil; uptake draws right from the very bottom of the sump (witness marks on the bottom of the sump and careful measurements prove this to be the case. So when heated, the bitumen accumulation is circulated through the lubricating system.
Mine failed because varnish from the bitumen set around the cam followers so that when I went to start it from cold, crunch clack clack clack whir whir and cam shafts were damaged, cam cogs, chain and guides were mangled.
Sorry this is so long. There is plenty more, like with hindsight how to detect the onset and prevent failure occurring. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
By the way, on rebuild, I had the gasket calibrated to overcome the restriction problem and the surface friction effect: Also, I spent a little time smoothing the flow path for the coolant and I repositioned the sump drain and shaped the bottom so that every last drop can be drained at any reasonable vehicle angle. Bitumen will never again be a problem in my engine.
I have also introduced a thermocouple permanently into the sump to monitor sump oil temperature. Oil temp now runs between 85 and 87 Degrees Celsius and peaks at 94 Degrees Celsius under heavy load climbing. Oil company representatives had previously told me that Toyota LandCruiser sump temperatures ran normally at 100 Degrees Celsius plus. Proof is in the pudding for me and I am very happy indeed with the results of my study and work.
Kind regards,
Roy Edgar in Canberra, Australia "
[h=3]More details about the research[/h]Norris asked several questions, the response was:
"Norris, To your questions thus far:
I have religiously used Castrol GTX III, a 15 - 40 job. Oil and filter changed regularly at around 4,500 Klms. And, given the fine condition of the friction surfaces throughout, I am thoroughly impressed with the way it performed as a lubricant under such relatively extreme operating conditions and despite the bitumen load that accumulated.
When my engine first failed, I immediately got Castrol involved because I felt strongly that the oil had failed to do its cleaning job. I must say, Castrol were responsive and immediately on the job and gave assurances that if their oil was at fault then they would promptly fix it and pick up all costs and my expenses.
But when I had the engine in bits on my work bench and was able to study the problem in its entirety, I absolutely ruled out any fault in the oil as being the cause of the bitumen accumulation and the failure.
I did however, write to Toyota and suggest that the specification they gave for engine lubricants seemed questionable. Clearly no engine sold to the public for motoring purposes should generate bitumen or any other potentially damaging contaminant in its approved lubricant simply by being operated within its approved operating range and servicing cycle. If it does, then there has to be a mismatch: either the oil isn't up to its advertised specifications (in this case it certainly was up to spec) or, the manufacturer has under specified the lubricant requirements.
Stating the obvious; in normal operating, the engine gets too hot for oils that are specified for its use. There were several external markers that overwhelmingly corroborate this finding. Taking the obvious a step further, the reason it gets so hot is a design and production engineering issue.
-- Roy Edgar
 

Doodle

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I find it somewhat hard to take seriously when:

There appears to be no certifiable independent references in the document to back up what is therefore otherwise opinion (albeit verbose).
It is posted on what appears to be a mostly self-justifying website offering what could be regarded as a "snake oil" service.
The webmaster does not know the difference between "floor" and "flaw".
 

Shayne

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One has to wonder what kind of engineer blows his engine up ? I hope he didn't design any bridges !
 

clivehorridge

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I liked bit about cavitation when talking about the water pump. It's a circulating pump, not a 60 lt/sec submersible! If flow is restricted, it won't cavitate anything, it will just spin in the water. :doh:
 

Roger Fairclough

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This is pure rubbish.

When I was engine testing with the Rover Co. we habitually ran sump temperatures at 130c and water temperatures at 115c during various tests. The oils were standard Shell 20-50.

This is pure scaremongering.

Roger
 

frank rabbets

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I think his point is that there are very hot spots on the block which are burning the oil locally. His engine failed at 85k miles so how common is this failure. I bet there are loads of these engines with many more miles on the clock. Feedback from other owners would be interesting.

Frank
 
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grantw

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Yep - most likely rubbish if it hasn't been heard about on here! I just came across it randomly and debated wether or not to post it - but thought might as well just in case.
 

Paddler Ed

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Low mileage, and infrequent oil changes, sticking to distance not time, and therefore the oil deteriorates? Wrong type of oil (mineral/semi-synthetic/synthetic) for the use?
 

Shayne

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Just done a little reading about engine oil and seems very likely to me his engine blew as a result of the truck being driven gently , for short distances only , on a regular basis .

Hence the engine oil never reached its ideal temperature and the natural deposits of soot were never carried to the filter . Surely everyone knows its good to give an engine a bit of rev occasionally to "blow out the cobwebs" as the saying goes .
 

clivehorridge

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He's probably just trying to justify to his missus that the car wreck sitting on the front drive was not his fault!
 

Roger Fairclough

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Just done a little reading about engine oil and seems very likely to me his engine blew as a result of the truck being driven gently , for short distances only , on a regular basis .

Hence the engine oil never reached its ideal temperature and the natural deposits of soot were never carried to the filter . Surely everyone knows its good to give an engine a bit of rev occasionally to "blow out the cobwebs" as the saying goes .

You would be amazed at the number of cars I serviced where the Rocker/cam cover was full of "mayonnaise" (emulsified oil) because of the slow running, short journey, usually elderly drivers.

Roger
 

captainproton

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I would like to respond to some of the claims and statements made by posters here regarding my fathers issues with his Cruiser. First of all, it is important that you know the vehicle in question is now in my possession and has run flawlessly since the rebuild. In fact, it runs better than a new one and having been in the motor industry for a long time and seen many Landcruisers, this is one of the best.

Secondly, if you wish to ignore the facts he outlined and continue to drive your time bomb that is up to you.

It is also important to be aware that dad was an Air/Mechanical Engineer, so building a bridge for you is unlikely. He had a degree in Applied Mathmatics, was an Engineer in the Royal Australian Navy for 36 years and probably had more experience and knowledge than your average mechanic and all of you put together.

When the Navy purchased a squadron of Sea King Helicopters it was dad that unpacked the boxes and built them. Every aircraft dad built is still flying somewhere, every aircraft built by others has since crashed. Aircraft 07 is now in a museum with his signature on it.

He was tasked with combining and revising aircraft maintenance manuals for the Army, Navy and Air Force and we now have 2 manuals rather than 10 or 12 as we had previously. Those manuals have now been adopted by various other countries. He was an Engineering Consultant to various Governments, including the U.S. He was invited to dinner with the U.S President and Bob Hawke many years ago.

Regarding the Sea King Helicopters he redesigned the leading edge mechanism on the rotors, a system now widely in use around the world on many helicopters. He pioneered various other maintenance methods now used around the world.

When one of the Sea Kings, built buy someone else, created a slapping noise when the rotors took the weight of the aircraft it was dad that worked out there was a 90 thousands of inch of play in the main gearbox shaft.

When aircraft crashed it was dad they called on to determine the cause!

He resigned from the Navy to look after my mother whom had developed a brain infection and as a result was nothing more than a vegetable, unable to move a single muscle. That didn't stop him taking on causes for those who needed help. He took the ACT Government to court and won in relation to Disable Parking. He has a gold plaque at the entrance to the township of Tuggeranong in Canberra.

On Friday afternoons he would gather local drug addicts and homeless and feed them, organise them into a choir, and provided them with some hope in life.

He fought hard for those who could not fight for themselves.

With regard to the issue with his Cruiser, well, I have hundreds of pages of test results, diagrams, flow data, he was thorough and accurate on every count.
He understood engines, oils, and most other things.

Someone made the comment about cavitation, well idiot, cavitation is an Engineering Term relating to metal stress. It is just bubble created under your boat when your prop spins.

It matters not if you believe what he discovered, but it does matter when comments are made about his character.

Also, the NVSR site you referred to as "Snake Oil", well, it must be snake oil which explains the large sum of money invested into us.

Dads cruiser was regularly driven around Canberra, from one side to the other, as well as down to Narooma (nearly 200ks). Even so, if the oil is screwing up in your engine because it isn't driven enough I would call that a design flaw on Toyota's part - wouldn't you?

If he didn't know how to do something he would find out. He always used the latest technology and equipment, his results were accurate!

Like it or not, continue driving your cruiser and it will blow up!
 

Ryan Thomson

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Meh, try telling that to all the 80 series drivers rolling around in Africa with over 500,000km on the clock...

Your fathers experience is clearly the exception and not the norm.
 

frank rabbets

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Hi Captain Proton,

Please do the following:-
1 .Read the definition of cavitation.
2. Read your dads report and understand the part about cavitation.
3. Read Clives comment about cavitation.
4. Withdraw your statement that Clive is an idiot.

Your whole case in convincing us is the evidence of cavitation on the water pump that your dad found. Please post your dads pictures of this.

When your dad recalibrated the gasket this would have only been possible if :-

1. The gasket holes were smaller than the parts they sealed, or,
2. If both the gaskets and parts they sealed were recalibrated.

Again no doubt your dad took pictures of this procedure as this was the hinge pin of him curing the problem. It would be of great service if you post these pics.
 
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Doodle

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Turn up, throw around insults and unsubstantiated claims (I'm noticing a trend here) on your first post. Great way to convince people to take you seriously :thumbup:
Just because someone invested money in something doesn't mean it's not a crock of shit. The adage "A fool and his money are easily parted" didn't spring out of thin air.

As per Ryan's post, this amazing design "flaw" (note the spelling) that Toyota are hiding from us seems to be rather limited in its sphere of effect. When you actually present some concrete evidence, then we might start giving creedence to what you're saying.
 

Chris

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Captain, it sounds like your Dad was a top fella. Sorry to hear he's passed away. I think that the general concencus here is that whilst your engine may have failed in the way described (it's certainly not a crack pot theory) there doesn't seem to be widespread evidence of this to corroborate that it's quite the ticking bomb being indicated. Now if this had been about the 1KZ-TE engine, we might have been saying 'Ahh, we know about this. Yes, you're quite right. Mr T made some mistakes there'

Chris
 

clivehorridge

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Thanks Frank for the support. I may well be an idiot, but that doesn't qualify mouthy to opine on that. I wasn't going to comment on the fact that he can't even spell, I thought that would be below the belt...... Till now:lol:.

Sorry, stuff and nonsense. I would like to be able to sit and chat with his dad about the subject, and sincerely it's a shame that he's no longer with us.

However, er, I wouldn't waste my time with this opinionated idiot.... And yes, I have the right to be equally abusive to him.
 

Gary820

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Anyone wanna buy a landcruiser? If it's gonna blow up may as well buy another 3.0 Isuzu :lol:
 

Chris

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I'd forgotten about those. They were dying as they left the production line weren't they. Complete disaster engine.
 

Gary820

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Rather flawed injector design you could call it!!

Had a 3.1 (supposed to be bomb proof) it went bang!
Had a 3.0 had some trouble got rid and new owner had trouble

Now I've got a petrol landcruiser which apparently will be blowing up at any given moment :think:
Plus my new car has a diesel engine we have in bits a lot!!! Not doing well am I?!





Ps the 3.1 may have been partly my fault running 28psi boost and fuel wound up!!!! Did get me home from Wales on 3cylinders though with most of the piston in the sump :icon-twisted:
 
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