80 Series starter motor failure discussion

[Chris]

Well, I have had a lot of cars. Not as many as some I know, but the vast majority have been Toyota going back 20 years. I have only ever broken down twice in one in all those years, both times it has been in an 80 and both times, it's been a starter motor. Now call me biased, but in my view that's very nearly a trend. Each time it has been very similar. Now, to add to that, when I got the white 80,it needed a starter before it failed completely, so that's original + 1. The white one went as we know, bring in the silver one. That's now 2 originals + one replacement. That starter started playing up and just wasn't fixable so I got one from Karl. That's now 2+2. I did check out all the contacts in there and everything was fine (not down to Karl, I can assure you - unit was perfect) Now of course I have had another go up in smoke. So now we're onto 2+3. Is it me or is that unreasonable in just over 2 years? I do less than 5k per year too. Feel like I need to start carrying a spare one in the boot.

Reading posts other than ours, people do seem to consider the starter as a weak point.

I do have a theory on this. With the starter being 24v there is a good degree of welly going through that. Given the fact that the 1HD-T engine starts on a touch the plunger and contacts barely even kiss each other. If you do quite a bit of stop and start on the engine, as I do, could it be that this is leading to heavy spark erosion of the contacts in there? Would I be better in fact, to turn the key longer and let the contacts touch for a second even though the starter gear would be engaged? Which is better, wear on the gear or wear on the contacts. I can't keep buying starters, it's nuts.

Chris

 

[Chas]

I would think turning the key longer would make no difference, it still makes and breaks once so the same amount of sparking would occur.

 

[Julian]

Would it be possible to use a 100 series 12v starter? Perhaps thats why Mr T changed them?

 

[Chris]

Well converting to 12v is an option that some people take. There is a starter that fits.

Chas, I am not sure about that. What I was suggesting is that the contacts basically only bounce. If you slam them together and hold for a second, there isn't the gap to arc across. Look it's not a technical argument, just some thoughts, but if you go into a dept store (as I do a lot) it's better to grab things like handrails if you are prone to static shocks rather than reach out gingerly where the spark will arc across and give you a right belt. See what I am saying. You still get the discharge, but it's different.

Chris

 

[Chris]

Here's the burned out guts of the the solenoid

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

How many of those starters were new OEM units and was it motor or contact failure? Any second hand started if original will be quite old by now ... The solenoid contacts are a known wear item, possibly because the motors are a bit OTT, pull a lot of juice as a result and cause more arcing than a lesser motor? The motors themselves don't strike me as prone to giving problems except that any originals will be getting on a bit. The after market starts seem to be quite low quality compared to OEM so I wouldn't be surprised to hear they were giving up the fight at an early age.

I changed the contacts once early on in my old green 80 and never touched it again, it was only 7 years old when I got it, had it for about 8 years. Didn't touch the starter in the red car I don't think.

 

[Chris]

Jon, all have been been OEM with the exception of the one I replaced on the white truck before it failed. All the failures have surrounded the solenoids / contacts from memory. As I said, I only had the end cap off for a look around a month or so ago and it all looked OK but surprisingly eroded from when I put it on not so long ago.

Off to Milners this afternoon to part with more hard earned - for a copy part of course.

Chris

 

[grantw]

Could it have anything to do with all the green laning and mud getting into it? But that would probably mean you'd get alternator/ac issues as well ... ?

 

[Chris]

No, I don't think so, they are actually very well sealed. I don't go laning particularly which shouldn't be a dirty affair in any case, but I do like to bury it mud as often as I can off road. Think I may actually have been floating in a lake this weekend, just backed up in time. But inside the stater, it was clean. Burned but clean. You are right about alternators though., They do get clogged and the brushes jam.

Chris

 

[Chris]

Picked up a new starter. Don't know why I worry about the price of diesel when I am spending this much on parts

Anyway, came with an interesting little data sheet

Rated power 4.5 kW
Rated Voltage 24v
Free run speed 6093 rpm
Free run current 70 amps
Max power 4.87 kW
Max torque 38.39 Nm
Max current 497 amps
Ripple 18 amps
Hold current 10 amps
Pill current 31 amp
Voltage drop 0.3718 V

Well, it might mean something to someone. But 4.5kW, that sound quite a bit.

Chris

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

The motors are a bit OTT really (that's winch motor territory), hence the heavy current draw and my theory about that being the reason the contacts wear out before the rest of the truck. I wouldn't clean up contacts I'd just replace them every now and again (including the plunger), it's not like they're expensive. In a manual 80, in low box, you can crawl over almost anything on the starter Does your Milner part have a screw terminal for the coil wire instead of an OEM blade connector?

The photo of your old one looks like maybe the insulation between the right contact and the casing failed?

 

[frank rabbets]

Same thing happened to me at 38,000 miles. Bought new Toyota kit which had much improved contacts and these have now done 100,000 miles. Important to change the plunger as well as the contacts as any previous heat may have damaged the spring strength. I have a keyed master switch spliced into the 24volt starter cable. I can take the key out if the motor sticks on ;;;or if I am in a crime laden area.

Frank

 

[Chris]

Jon, not really had it out of the box yet. I can't see what's happened in there, it doesn't make much sense. The large plastic insulating collar is pretty much OK. Well, new on one shortly so that'll be that.

 

[Towpack]

Picked up a new starter. Don't know why I worry about the price of diesel when I am spending this much on parts

Anyway, came with an interesting little data sheet

Rated power 4.5 kW
Rated Voltage 24v
Free run speed 6093 rpm
Free run current 70 amps
Max power 4.87 kW
Max torque 38.39 Nm
Max current 497 amps
Ripple 18 amps
Hold current 10 amps
Pill current 31 amp
Voltage drop 0.3718 V

Well, it might mean something to someone. But 4.5kW, that sound quite a bit.

Chris

A 24v unit of a given rating will pull half the current of a 12v unit so should be easier on the solenoid contacts 'cos it's the current which creates the heat which does the damage.
Not too sure how they've worked out the above figures. Depends if the 'rated power' of 4.87kw is the electrical power consumption of the motor or the output power (some manufacturers rate the output power of motors and even engines in kw as well or instead of HP or PS). An electrical power consumption figure of 4.87kw would draw just over 200amps @24v so maybe it's the former. Likewise a 24v motor that draws 497amps would consume over 11kw of electrical power.
If 4.87kw is the output power that's around 6.6hp.

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

Jon, not really had it out of the box yet. I can't see what's happened in there, it doesn't make much sense. The large plastic insulating collar is pretty much OK. Well, new on one shortly so that'll be that.

I was thinking more of the insulation between the back of the contact and the inside of the casing. It's only a thought based on a picture so probably not that at all.

 

[Chris]

Jon I get you. It has suffered you are right. But I can't tell if that's a cause or effect unfortunately.

New one comes with a tab that you transfer the old flying lead to just like the OEM one.

Chris

 

[adrianr]

Same thing happened to me at 38,000 miles. Bought new Toyota kit which had much improved contacts and these have now done 100,000 miles. Important to change the plunger as well as the contacts as any previous heat may have damaged the spring strength. I have a keyed master switch spliced into the 24volt starter cable. I can take the key out if the motor sticks on ;;;or if I am in a crime laden area.

Frank

HI Frank - where did you get the keyed master switch from please?

 

[clivehorridge]

You could offroad just on the starter motor, you'd save a fortune on diesel...

Seriously, in 7 years driving my '95, I've had the original starter solenoid (don't really know what to call it...not the contacts) fail (the casing cracked) and I replaced it with a recon unit in March this year.

 

[clivehorridge]

By the way, the original starter worked for 17 years and 340,000 kms. I couldn't consider that a weakness.

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Adrianr

I have a local place specialysing just in electrical parts for cars and commercials. I cannot rember their name but if you get stuck pm me. The key is in the form of a 3 inch long handle which you insert in the switch. Then there is a hard sprung turn and a click as obviously the contacts have to be forced together for such a high current. Obviously it has been in circuit all the time since I fitted it some 10 years ago and it has not failed. It is under the bonnet with the key in. When you need to isolate the starter or immobilise the car by isolating the starter you just remove the key. It is a commercial vehicle one. I'll look and post back here if I can find a pic. Would totally floor car theives.

Frank