Chitty Chitty Bang Bang BOOM!

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Howaya lads and lassies.
The old cruiser is in a spot of bother and I could do with a bit of
advise
Got a call yesterday from Frogs Island re the overhaul they are doing
on the cruiser.
It appears the engine calved on the test run....
1. The rocker on the nr 2 piston came off + broke
2. Struck the valve into the piston
3. Broke the valve head off
4. Smashed the face off the cylinder head
5. Destroyed the piston
6. Scored the bore on the block
IN fairnesss to the boys they're straight up and honest.
They've sourced a second hand engine and pending inspection of same are
planning to stick it in with my reconditioned injector pump, serviced
injectors and AC compressor.
New engine cost *1500 - out of a 1998 with 92K miles - out of a rear
ended cruiser.
They have offered to put it in and have asked me to consider going
halves on the engine cost - labour etc at their cost.
I want to be fair and reasonable but need to know if this type of
engine failure would likely have happened anyway - or was it more likely
a result of the engine overhaul which roughly consisted of the
following:
1. Valve clearance check/adjustment
2. Injectors & pump overhaul
3. BEB's
4. Timing belt
Also - if the new engine goes in - would I then need to do all of the
above again? + what kind of warranty would you need.....
Any advise appreciated.
Niall
Nissan Note
 
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Hi Niall,
Personally I would put it down to the ooverhaul - these are very solid
engines.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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On 22/6/07 10:00, "Niall Sommers" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Niall
Don't know how old your engine is and how many miles etc but it looks a bit
suspicious to me. I'm sure someone with bucket loads of knowledge will chip
in but I wouldn't be convinced that they've done all of the above too
cleverly. And suggesting they go halves is tantamount to an admission of
guilt maybe...?
Jeremy
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
--
 
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Hi Niall,
Just going back to this, the following doesn't add up.
If the rocker comes off, I can't see how it can strike the valve into
the head - the valve is closed by default and with no rocker there to
open it, it should remain closed.
Unless the valve seized causing the rocker to snap?
Personally it sounds more likely the cam belt was put on wrong screwing
up the timing.
Normal cambelt changes are pretty easy because everything is left lined
up, however if you are working on the valves and camshaft, the crank
for the BEBs and the IP you loose the alignment and have a think a bit
more to get everything lined up before putting the cambelt on and if
you don't follow the correct sequence you can mess things up.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Thanks Julian

Appreciate the advise + the phone call

Going to be some craic sorting this mess!

Niall
 
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No comment on this fault just on going halves with a garage - VW garage once
tried to stitch me up going halves. Wanted me to pay half of the parts and
labour, only thing is my half was effectively bigger cause they already have
markup on parts and labour, they paid 100% in the end.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
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No it doesn't add up.
I doubt the valve seized, more likely got stuck on the piston because the
valve timing was wrong but how do you set valve clearances without finding
the valve is hitting the piston? Perhaps the timing belt wasn't tensioned
and slipped?
The 50% offer you have is on the engine only right? So you pay =A3750, they
fit it at their cost and then carry out the work that was carried out on
your engine on the new engine also for the cost previously quoted?
Your right they are trying to do the right thing, I might be tempted if the
replacement engine is OK and they provide 12 months warranty, let you keep
all the ancillaries of both engines but then I would be thinking "through no
fault of my own I am =A3750 out of pocket and have lots of unknown parts in
the engine bay" overall I would be happier if I didn't pay the =A3750, say you
have to go back for warranty work on the replacement engine, that =A3750 will
really gall you, (my wife usually says I am too soft a negotiator).
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
Unless the valve seized causing the rocker to snap?
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Hi Malcolm,
It really depends on the order that you do things.
For doing the valves you need to be able to turn the crank around to check
the valve gaps at various points. You can either do this with the cam belt
in place rotating the IP, crank, etc or the other option is to set the
engine to Bottom Dead Centre, which is marked on the block and enables you
to turn the cam indepently of the crank (therefore easier) with the cam belt
off.
When doing the BEBs you need to rotate the crank - bearing in mind that you
are doing all the other things, it makes sense to do the BEBs when the
injectors are out.
If the BEBs had been done with the cam belt off, some of the valves would
have been open and there is the possibility that a valve could get bent when
hit by one of the pistons which would cause the valve to seize and the
resultant problems.
A hard knock to the valve would be immediately obvious, however if it was a
light knock and a mild bend, you may be able to put the engine back together
getting everything setup OK, but once started with the engine warming up the
valve could end up sticking open causing the problems listed, but I can't
see how it would cause a rocker on No. 2 cylinder coming off the shaft that
holds all the rockers.
That is a possibilty - if they were doing the job properly they would have
replaced the tensioner as well, however may not have re-applied the
tensioning spring correctly (it's an arse to get properly seated on the
12valve, could well be the same on the 24) - it would be interesting to
strip the engine to inspect it properly and see what actually happened
although I guess it may be too late for that.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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I cross posted a query to a couple of other lists to try to establish
if there was any history of rocker failures on 1HD-FTs and no major
feedback as yet.
However there was the mention of the garage's insurance - FI will
either be swallowing the costs or be claiming against their liability
insurance - either way they should pay the full cost.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Ha insurance? Claim on something like that an they will charge you double
next year "I've made a schoolboy error and totalled an engine, can I have
=A31500 to fix it?" "Sure, by the way, here's your quote for next year with
the additional idiot premium!"
Can't say it should be any other way either, problem is there is a slight
chance the rocker was "fractured" (always a nice word in reports) and the
disturbance during "disassembly" and "reassembly" generated additional
stresses which cause the failure.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
claiming against their liability insurance
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Malcolm

Re - problem is there is a slight chance the rocker was "fractured" (always a nice word in reports) and the disturbance during "disassembly" and "reassembly" generated additional stresses which cause the failure.
Fair point.

I'm weighing up all the options.

The balance of probabilities lies on an error - that would be enough to convict in a criminal case

For murder it has to be beyond all reasonable doubt!

I'm after a fair & reasonable outcome......

Will keep you posted

Thanks for the thoughts and input

Niall
 
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Julian

Re - either way they should pay the full cost.

I'm definetly leaning that way, but on the plus side i'll have an engine with 92K miles as opposed to 195K miles.....

Thanks for posting to other sites - would be interested to hear of any similar failures

Have a good weekend all, keep sucking diesel and to hell with the carbon foot print

Niall
'95 HDJ80 - RIP....
 
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Julian

Re - it would be interesting to strip the engine to inspect it properly and see what actually happened although I guess it may be too late for that.

Think it's still in the yard at frogs - would make a nice garden feature after autopsey!

Niall
 
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Malcolm
Re *750 out of pocket and have lots of unknown parts in the engine bay"
Thats exactly it - the fear of those unknown bits.... Have been
carefully minding the bits for 2 years in the hope of achieving
reliability for africa. Now i'm back to square one.
Fate is a strange thing - perhaps this whole thing happened for a good
reason - would hate for the engine to calve on the trail.
Might be better to keep the good karma vibe going!
As the dalilama once said:
"Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful
stroke of luck."
Ohmmmmm.............
>>> [Email address removed] 22/06/2007 11:55:32 >>>
No it doesn't add up.
I doubt the valve seized, more likely got stuck on the piston because
the
valve timing was wrong but how do you set valve clearances without
finding
the valve is hitting the piston? Perhaps the timing belt wasn't
tensioned
and slipped?
The 50% offer you have is on the engine only right? So you pay *750,
they
fit it at their cost and then carry out the work that was carried out
on
your engine on the new engine also for the cost previously quoted?
Your right they are trying to do the right thing, I might be tempted if
the
replacement engine is OK and they provide 12 months warranty, let you
keep
all the ancillaries of both engines but then I would be thinking
"through no
fault of my own I am *750 out of pocket and have lots of unknown parts
in
the engine bay" overall I would be happier if I didn't pay the *750,
say you
have to go back for warranty work on the replacement engine, that *750
will
really gall you, (my wife usually says I am too soft a negotiator).
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
Unless the valve seized causing the rocker to snap?
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17:53
 
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Niall,
I'm not knowledgeable to give any advice on how it happened but, you drove a
nice reliable vehicle there with no trouble? they did some work on it and
then took it for a test drive and it all went tits up, then they offer to
pay half?, forget it, their fault their cost, or rather their insurers cost.
TTFN
Chas
London UK '94 1HDT 80 Auto, Safari snorkel, Custom Winch bumper + winch, and
Rear bumper with spare wheel carrier.
+ now have Ray Dadds rock sliders on
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Sommers" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: [ELCO] Chitty Chitty Bang Bang BOOM!
 
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Niall,
I am a bit doubtful about garages anyway but I think the likely
cause is item 1 the other way round, the rocker didn't come off and
break, it broke and then came off. The cause of breaking would have
been over adjustment, making it too tight. I would be prone to asking
them to do nothing to the car until you have had an auto engineers
report on the damage and likely cause. If I am right then it is all
their fault and you should pay nothing.
Regards,
Clive Marks
Home: +44 1293 514600
Mobile: +44 7821 491897
Skype: Cobminor
Crawley, West Sussex, UK.
 
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Niall,
I know we get attached to LC's but a dead engine is a civil case, not
criminal and certainly not murder!
I have to say I wouldn't want to contribute, but when the garage make the
offer first and are proactive it's sometimes harder to be firm but I think
you should stick to you guns. Karma well if your patient and polite I think
you deserve some credit perhaps the lower mileage is that - FI will make the
=A3750 quicker than you and the reward for their response probably doesn't
relay on Karma.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
For murder it has to be beyond all reasonable doubt!
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17:53
 
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Hi Clive,
I was going to suggest that, however suspect that they have already
stripped the engine to establish the damage in their list so it may be
too late to establish the true cause.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Niall.
I can only go by what happened to my 2LTE engine in my Hilux Surf be ore I got my LC. Tappet shim wore out, fell ou and the valve hit the piston, bent, seized and then brokr taking out the head, number 2 piston and all the BEBs. I would recon on adjustment starting the train of events
Regards
Andy Harvey
[Email address removed]
Cheltenham, glos
07761 266676
1993 HDJ80
 
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