G
Guest
Guest
Julian,
Great review and good insight into the problem
I advocated legal direction as I've seen it work over here in the US.
Often see the larger groups (goverment and feds included and sometimes the
large eco-groups) losing in court by some small group that feel their
"rights" are being impinged.
I see these in the falconry arena as we are a small group that often get a
lot of hassle from eco-armchair groups (Sierra club) etc. and they try and
change some the rights we have as a hunting group. Thankfully a lot of the
enviromental laws are based on science (e.g. breeding numbers etc.) and not
emotional issues (now saying that the pergrine falcon is still not off the
endangered list even though its numbers are more than recovered - this is
the case in the UK as well where they have the highest numbers ever recorded
(and falconry records go back a looong time -as a lot of royalty was into
it)) - so still some emotional aspects left. However with Bush in power now
seeing more 'business' and politcal interests getting their speak.
Sorry gone off topic but back to 4x4ing. The Feds (responsible for a lot of
large tracts of public land and forestry) recently lost a case where they
were trying to shutdown a 4x4 trail but had no 'scientific' facts to back it
up. They lost and the trail remains open and used.
Lal in Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed]
[mailto:[Email address removed]]On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:00 PM
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] [ELCO Digest]
Hi Ian,
Coming from a farming/country background here is my 2 pence worth and
feeling in the mood for a late night ramble....
Firstly the goretext brigade (ramblers), you will struggle to get
anywhere with them - they are very well funded, well connected and a
powerful lobbying force. According to Jeremy Clarkson they originated
from the Communist party, I doubt this, but an interesting idea!
Next the Labour party, if the hunting ban has proved anything, it is
that the current government will not listen to reason, they will
commission enquiries into issues and then completely disregard the
results/outcome. More than likely they will follow what the goretext
brigade want.
Unfortunately the 4x4 brigade already have a such a strong negative
image in the public eye and I suspect that any civil disobedience will
just aggravate the situation.
It is all pretty depressing, however I would suggest the following
course of action might achieve something:
Firstly you need to unite all off roaders under a common organisation
with subscriptions to provide a fighting fund - along the same lines as
the Countryside Alliance, but far better organised with a damn site
better PR.
You need to educate the public in general and the people you meet when
travelling along the byways and explain to them why you have a right to
be there. Print leaflets explaining the legalities that can be handed
out, explain the facts, explain the facts that byways are the
equivalent to main roads without the tarmac, etc.... Basically terms
they will understand.
Your biggest enemy is negative image. You have a big problem with off
roaders driving where they shouldn't, wrecking tracks making them
practically impassable by pedestrians and anything less than severely
modified 4x4s as well as causing damage to trees/fences from winching,
etc - this has to be policed by the central body and you need to work
with local councils to try to lessen/repair the damage.
I remember talking to some people from the Wiltshire county Council a
few years ago about groups of 4x4s coming down from London and churning
up the Fosseway (at the time I had a farm to play on so wasn't
necessarily pro the off road community). Their solution was this -
rather than charging building companies to dump rubble at the local tip
they were allowed to dump it for free on sections of the Fosse - this
solved the problems of the massive ruts as well as reduced the
attraction to off roaders only interested in playing in really rough
muddy sections.
I think that this is something that can be replicated around the
country and supported by a central off roading body - perhaps they
could get parties of volunteers to help doing the grading etc.
The days of mud plugging on public byways are limited and you will
struggle to defend it - if you want to do it there are plenty of pay
and play sites and there will always be Salisbury Plain (BTW Ian, are
you coming?).
If you can combat the negative image by making the repair of damage a
top priority then you might stand a chance of retaining some rights.
On the issue of opening up disused tracks I would be inclined to put
this on the back burner - fight for the ones that are already opened
up.
On the issues of landowners blocking tracks, it is a pain in the ass,
but you aren't going to make friends being adversarial about it. You
need a team of local farming related off roaders (there must be some)
to establish why the track has been closed off and then try to
negotiate - the chances are that it has blocked off for stock reasons
or to prevent off roaders causing damage, leaving gates open, etc.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
Great review and good insight into the problem
I advocated legal direction as I've seen it work over here in the US.
Often see the larger groups (goverment and feds included and sometimes the
large eco-groups) losing in court by some small group that feel their
"rights" are being impinged.
I see these in the falconry arena as we are a small group that often get a
lot of hassle from eco-armchair groups (Sierra club) etc. and they try and
change some the rights we have as a hunting group. Thankfully a lot of the
enviromental laws are based on science (e.g. breeding numbers etc.) and not
emotional issues (now saying that the pergrine falcon is still not off the
endangered list even though its numbers are more than recovered - this is
the case in the UK as well where they have the highest numbers ever recorded
(and falconry records go back a looong time -as a lot of royalty was into
it)) - so still some emotional aspects left. However with Bush in power now
seeing more 'business' and politcal interests getting their speak.
Sorry gone off topic but back to 4x4ing. The Feds (responsible for a lot of
large tracts of public land and forestry) recently lost a case where they
were trying to shutdown a 4x4 trail but had no 'scientific' facts to back it
up. They lost and the trail remains open and used.
Lal in Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed]
[mailto:[Email address removed]]On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:00 PM
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] [ELCO Digest]
Hi Ian,
Coming from a farming/country background here is my 2 pence worth and
feeling in the mood for a late night ramble....
Firstly the goretext brigade (ramblers), you will struggle to get
anywhere with them - they are very well funded, well connected and a
powerful lobbying force. According to Jeremy Clarkson they originated
from the Communist party, I doubt this, but an interesting idea!
Next the Labour party, if the hunting ban has proved anything, it is
that the current government will not listen to reason, they will
commission enquiries into issues and then completely disregard the
results/outcome. More than likely they will follow what the goretext
brigade want.
Unfortunately the 4x4 brigade already have a such a strong negative
image in the public eye and I suspect that any civil disobedience will
just aggravate the situation.
It is all pretty depressing, however I would suggest the following
course of action might achieve something:
Firstly you need to unite all off roaders under a common organisation
with subscriptions to provide a fighting fund - along the same lines as
the Countryside Alliance, but far better organised with a damn site
better PR.
You need to educate the public in general and the people you meet when
travelling along the byways and explain to them why you have a right to
be there. Print leaflets explaining the legalities that can be handed
out, explain the facts, explain the facts that byways are the
equivalent to main roads without the tarmac, etc.... Basically terms
they will understand.
Your biggest enemy is negative image. You have a big problem with off
roaders driving where they shouldn't, wrecking tracks making them
practically impassable by pedestrians and anything less than severely
modified 4x4s as well as causing damage to trees/fences from winching,
etc - this has to be policed by the central body and you need to work
with local councils to try to lessen/repair the damage.
I remember talking to some people from the Wiltshire county Council a
few years ago about groups of 4x4s coming down from London and churning
up the Fosseway (at the time I had a farm to play on so wasn't
necessarily pro the off road community). Their solution was this -
rather than charging building companies to dump rubble at the local tip
they were allowed to dump it for free on sections of the Fosse - this
solved the problems of the massive ruts as well as reduced the
attraction to off roaders only interested in playing in really rough
muddy sections.
I think that this is something that can be replicated around the
country and supported by a central off roading body - perhaps they
could get parties of volunteers to help doing the grading etc.
The days of mud plugging on public byways are limited and you will
struggle to defend it - if you want to do it there are plenty of pay
and play sites and there will always be Salisbury Plain (BTW Ian, are
you coming?).
If you can combat the negative image by making the repair of damage a
top priority then you might stand a chance of retaining some rights.
On the issue of opening up disused tracks I would be inclined to put
this on the back burner - fight for the ones that are already opened
up.
On the issues of landowners blocking tracks, it is a pain in the ass,
but you aren't going to make friends being adversarial about it. You
need a team of local farming related off roaders (there must be some)
to establish why the track has been closed off and then try to
negotiate - the chances are that it has blocked off for stock reasons
or to prevent off roaders causing damage, leaving gates open, etc.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
