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Helping the NHS flounder.
- Thread starter Dave2000
- Start date
@goodoldboy I appreciate you have acknowledged the links I have posted and have taken the time to read some of the content, it does seem to have at softened the tone of your latest post, it follows that this makes discussions much more pleasant to be involved in, and may engage others with different views?
The point I do not seem to be getting over which was in the links, is that once an immigrant couple start a family and to keep this discussion grounded, let us assume two children, throwing out figures (7)and based on my perception was wrong but they will become additonal resource load.
So, 25,000 couples, thats 50,000 immigrants come to the UK this year and are added to the NHS patient list, as of yet none of them have put a penny into the system, but will expect free health care, that has to be an additional load on resources, the 'load' being anything from a cold to tuboculosis or other infectious diseases which may have been brought with some of them, there is evidence to back that.
Within a year 75%, of the females fall pregnant or already are when they arrive, they are an addition to the NHS 'load' with pre natal checks ect. Nine months later they each give birth to one child, so that's an additional 18,750 children collectively and to prevent complicating the numbers I will not assume that any sets of twins or more have been born, in the same way I will discount any unfortunate miscarriages or stillborn numbers.
This 18,750 are additional load, not just on health services but now includes child benefit. A second child will almost certainly be born within the next two years, so we now have over 37,000 added to the NHS list and benefit numbers, the child benefits will of course continue to draw on resources until the children are of working age, health services for life, for which we are going to assume they are going to pay for.
I use the above based on just two children, research shows that the typical Bangladeshi family have a minimum of four children, double the children......double the load.
I am not against immigration, but it needs to be controlled, potential families moving to this country should be screened for health issues, and that they have a job to go to, and not a promise from buddy that disappears a week later after they arrive.
Apologies to anyone who feels they have been unfairly labelled a 'load'.
Regards
Dave
The point I do not seem to be getting over which was in the links, is that once an immigrant couple start a family and to keep this discussion grounded, let us assume two children, throwing out figures (7)and based on my perception was wrong but they will become additonal resource load.
So, 25,000 couples, thats 50,000 immigrants come to the UK this year and are added to the NHS patient list, as of yet none of them have put a penny into the system, but will expect free health care, that has to be an additional load on resources, the 'load' being anything from a cold to tuboculosis or other infectious diseases which may have been brought with some of them, there is evidence to back that.
Within a year 75%, of the females fall pregnant or already are when they arrive, they are an addition to the NHS 'load' with pre natal checks ect. Nine months later they each give birth to one child, so that's an additional 18,750 children collectively and to prevent complicating the numbers I will not assume that any sets of twins or more have been born, in the same way I will discount any unfortunate miscarriages or stillborn numbers.
This 18,750 are additional load, not just on health services but now includes child benefit. A second child will almost certainly be born within the next two years, so we now have over 37,000 added to the NHS list and benefit numbers, the child benefits will of course continue to draw on resources until the children are of working age, health services for life, for which we are going to assume they are going to pay for.
I use the above based on just two children, research shows that the typical Bangladeshi family have a minimum of four children, double the children......double the load.
I am not against immigration, but it needs to be controlled, potential families moving to this country should be screened for health issues, and that they have a job to go to, and not a promise from buddy that disappears a week later after they arrive.
Apologies to anyone who feels they have been unfairly labelled a 'load'.
Regards
Dave
goodoldboy
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Another assumption? If you look at the report you posted about Newham births were 2.0 as opposed to the 1.8 which is the UK average.
Also in the report was figures for unemployment , which were higher than both the London & UK average but only 2% were claiming out of work benefit with the London & UK figures being 1.9 & 1.8 respectively.
Also 78% of working aged people were economically active.
Right I'm off to break some pots , ill finish this later.
Rob Cowell
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It's useful to link to evidence rather than just say it exists though. What % of immigrants require NHS treatment in their first year in the country, and how many are ill and requiring treatment on arrival?
Also we should compare with how many non-immigrants are "paying into the system" to understand if immigration is skewing the demand on shared resources. Otherwise immigrants might be doing good, and you'd want to know about that wouldn't you?
Is there evidence for that or have you just made up that number?
They are, aren't they? I know a couple of people who have immigrated here and it was a horrendously drawn-out process requiring a lot of evidence of their ability to support themselves. I know EU citizens have free movement but as I'm sure has been mentioned countless times here they are only entitled to benefits for 3 months while looking for work. The UK government choses not to enforce this limit though.
I have no doubt some people game the system, and get away with for a period of time. What I doubt very much is that the majority of those people are immigrants, but please share contrary evidence. My concern with more restrictive immigration and welfare provision is people who really need help don't get that help, and people who can really help us go somewhere else. There has to be a balance. I suspect we just disagree where that balance lies.
goodoldboy
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.....also i forgot to mention that 21% of nurses & 30% of doctors in the NHS are foreign.
im still no wiser Dave as to why you accept the governments "there isnt enough money " argument.
im still no wiser Dave as to why you accept the governments "there isnt enough money " argument.
@Rob Cowell and @goodoldboy Sorry guys I forgot to post these links.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/703853/migration-babies-ONS-Government-Theresa-May
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/738746/population-boom-baby-foreign-parents-UK-migrants
Regards
Dave
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/703853/migration-babies-ONS-Government-Theresa-May
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/738746/population-boom-baby-foreign-parents-UK-migrants
Regards
Dave
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Rob Cowell
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So article 1 says 76% of babies born in Newham were to non-UK mothers. And 11% of babies born in the NE were. And from this you extrapolate 75% of non-UK mothers give birth in their first year in the UK? Maths not your strong point?
Both my children were born to a mother born outside the UK. Are you concerned about the drain they are placing on society?
No Rob, it was a reasonable assumption given the numbers of migration based on those figures, and the natural desire for most humans to have children.
I did look for actual figures but found none, and as I said earlier I am not inclined to roll through pages of conflicting data, I have better things to do.
This discussion made its way to this point by a claim that immigration has an impact on resources in the UK, I am sure that If I had said 10% instead of 75, you would still have refuted the fact that immigration does affect resources in the UK.
I asked why immigrants bypass Spain and France and other countries, you know the ones where you pay for health care and benefits? And I felt it was because of of our free health care and benefits system. You refuted this by claiming it was because English is widely spoken throughout the world, which is true, and yet a census study found some 800,000 immigrants who did not speak English, the result is 400,000 do not work, they are on benefits, and of course so are their offspring.............
and yet you believe this to be nothing of consequence on UK resources.
Years ago the UK was free of TB, and now it is back due to immigration from countries still riddled with the disease, these people need treatment.....NHS treatment, they cannot work so need benefits, as do their dependents.............
and yet you believe this to be nothing of consequence on UK resources.
Take my figures, reduce them by 50%, no make that 70%, the result remains the same, there will be additional strain on UK services, so no matter what I post, you will remain in denial about immigration and its impact on resources, I can do no more.......and do not feel I need to, so I am done.
As a closing note just remember this, I have not spent my time defending my rights to UK health or benefit resources as I do not live there, I have in fact been defending.............yours.
Regards
Dave
I did look for actual figures but found none, and as I said earlier I am not inclined to roll through pages of conflicting data, I have better things to do.
This discussion made its way to this point by a claim that immigration has an impact on resources in the UK, I am sure that If I had said 10% instead of 75, you would still have refuted the fact that immigration does affect resources in the UK.
I asked why immigrants bypass Spain and France and other countries, you know the ones where you pay for health care and benefits? And I felt it was because of of our free health care and benefits system. You refuted this by claiming it was because English is widely spoken throughout the world, which is true, and yet a census study found some 800,000 immigrants who did not speak English, the result is 400,000 do not work, they are on benefits, and of course so are their offspring.............
and yet you believe this to be nothing of consequence on UK resources.
Years ago the UK was free of TB, and now it is back due to immigration from countries still riddled with the disease, these people need treatment.....NHS treatment, they cannot work so need benefits, as do their dependents.............
and yet you believe this to be nothing of consequence on UK resources.
Take my figures, reduce them by 50%, no make that 70%, the result remains the same, there will be additional strain on UK services, so no matter what I post, you will remain in denial about immigration and its impact on resources, I can do no more.......and do not feel I need to, so I am done.
As a closing note just remember this, I have not spent my time defending my rights to UK health or benefit resources as I do not live there, I have in fact been defending.............yours.
Regards
Dave
Paddler Ed
Well-Known Member
I think you've hit the nail on the head - the skilled migrant scheme's around the world work quite well for saving money for governments who have underinvested in training for both skilled trades and skilled professions - once those people leave, it's quite hard to replace them...
goodoldboy
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which says it al really. You've made the claim repeatedly that immigrants are a drain on the system based on the assumptions that they take more than they contribute.Also you cant explain why you believe the governments claim that they cant fund the NHS or public services properly.
Are remarks about cockroach infested mattresses or soap dodgers relevant to this debate or a tactic to distract fromyour inability to provide ANYTHING to back up your claims.
Any updates on the rise in rapes & muggings in Germany? Some Germans told you so it must be true.
How on earth do you diagnose problems as a mechanic if you cant link an effect to a cause - not that you've even come close to demonstrating any effect.
TB is increasing worldwide & is a disease associated with poverty & endless wars are creating millions of refugees.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lewis-shaw/6-arguments-people-make-a_1_b_7912162.html
again another link with plenty of facts that can be checked.
this study
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs
has some data on immigration & the health service but it would seem it has a very small impact.
"The vast majority of them do speak the national language well but the census found that there are 785,000 who admit speaking English either poorly or not at all" from the Telegraph i presume?
how manay are students who will learn english as part of their studies?
"The total number of non-UK students studying in the UK in 2016-17 is 442,375"
"The figures show that housewives make up the biggest category of women who do not have a good command of English"
where , exactly does it say in the report that "they are on benefits, and of course so are their offspring"
Anyone can have an gut feeling or theory but without evidence to or data to test them they remain unproven
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Its a proven fact that everyone who ever so much as seen a lit cigarette died just moments later and it must be true because hundreds of millions of smokers can only offer anecdotal evidence to the contrary .
I like this without prejudice look at Germany's migrant "problem" for it can be called nothing else when a thing demands relentless efforts to "manage" it .
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/art...MIwLff0YOa2wIVC7TtCh0goQXwEAAYASAAEgKLbPD_BwE
I like this without prejudice look at Germany's migrant "problem" for it can be called nothing else when a thing demands relentless efforts to "manage" it .
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/art...MIwLff0YOa2wIVC7TtCh0goQXwEAAYASAAEgKLbPD_BwE
