intercooler

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Guest

Guest
Hi Guys
Im moving on again in my hunger for info so just wondering if any of you
have an intercooler installed.
I have been looking at claims of 20% fuel saving 30 to 40% more power and
torque.
I dont knowhow acurate or true or nearly true these claims are.
What is needed to install a kit, ie welder, expertise specialist sho,
ability to weld alu, etc etc.
A lot of places will sell but wont fit .
Allisport do a kit and will fit, anyone know what they are like quality or
other wise.
I know one has to adjust the injector pump in some way but not sure in what
way.
Do you have to adjust it to get more fuel saving or more power or both.
Can you leave it alone and still get better fuel economy or power or must it
be toutched in some way.
Can you have one or the other, better power or better fuel economy or can
you have a little of both.
Regarding exhausts is it a fact that a bigger dump pipe will result in
better spin but is there a limit if fitting a 3 inch exhaust.
Would a 4 inch dump be better than a 3 and a half inch dump and so on or is
there a negitive equation to this theory aswell.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Guest

Guest
John,
I can't answer much of this but here goes. Allisport have a good
reputation for quality, when I looked at their intercooler for the 80
I didn't like the look of it, it seemed a bit lumpy.
If you find a kit that needs welding skills to fit it you don't
want it, it would be a bad kit. The concept of kit is bolt it on and
set it up.
The main reason for intercooling is more power and torque, fuel
economy, if there, is a by product. You would have to drive without
using the power increase to get any fuel saving worth mentioning.
That's about all I can answer.
Regards, Clive.
 
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Guest

Guest
Hey Clive
Thanks for that info. It all counts and thats why im gratefull for any info
that I dont already have.
Some of the guys I contacted wanted mad money and then would not fit , while
others needed to be welded by a ALU welder.
Im trying to put it all together which is difficult cause.
Quality and fitting v quality and no fitting and then trying to get someone
to fit it.
Cheap price but quality? and free fitting v cheap and no fitting.
What to look out for, what to know, what to see as crap, basically what is
what and that takes help and honesty from guys who know.
Thanks clive
John 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Guest

Guest
That chimes with what I've found from my research: intercooling might
lower the combustion temperature a bit, all other things being equal,
but how would that give improved fuel economy?
Or am I missing something - perhaps one gets better combustion
efficiency or something?
BTW: John: you fitted a large bore didn't you? Did it make any
difference to the mpg?
Christopher Bell
Devon, UK
1996 1HD-FT
| The main reason for intercooling is more power and
| torque, fuel economy, if there, is a by product. You would
| have to drive without using the power increase to get any
| fuel saving worth mentioning.
|
| That's about all I can answer.
|
| Regards, Clive.
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Hi Christopher,
On my 1HD-FT I picked up a easy 20% improvement in economy with Maartens
intercooler. I put this down to a combination of two things without the
intercooler I was pumping air itno the inlet manifold at 85-110 degrees
C with the intercooler this has dropped to 20-35 degrees C which
effectively improves volumetric efficiency (larger mass of air in the
cylinders) and you end up with so much more mid range torque in general
driving you are surfing on the strong mid range torque not having to rev
the engine to get it to do something. The truck is much more relaxing to
drive as it is so much more responsive. I have seen similar results on
many different diesels. It is feasible to get quite big gains in power,
close to 100%, yet while cruising gain substantial improvements in
economy, I know this tends to sound counter intuitive and it generally
is when making big power gains ona petrol engine but diesel turbo's are
different animals.
Cheers,
Craig.
Christopher Bell wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Christopher
No I have not fitted a bigger exhaust Yet but I think its on the way. So I
can say if they are better or worse from a personal point of view but thay
are by all I have heard and read suppossed to be better.
I know Gareth has one and I was impressed with the difference between his
and mine, performance wise it seems to have more get up and go.
But then his is a lot younger than mine and has the 24v compared to my 12v.
I will need an exhaust and will replace it with a bigger pipe and then I
will know for sure wont I.
My slant on the intercooler so far is this (O I hate putting my neck on the
line here but especially when im only getting to grips with the theory
myself)
But it would seem that the lower air temp meand that more air can combine
with the fuel and so you get a better mix and better economy.
When the air is heated it expands and so you dont get as much air in there
as if it were cool.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
Craig
I can see that not having to push it to high revs to accelerate would help, but I'd have thought that this effect would be less marked with a manual box and a light right foot.
But I still struggle to see how, at constant speed and hence constant revs, there can be much improvement in economy.
Perhaps the fuel/air mixture at (say) 70mph is too rich and adding a greater mass of air improves matters. But I find this surprising since all the mixture curves I've seen for diesels suggest that the mixture is usually too lean until you reach about 80% power, at which point it goes too rich. And I can't believe that I'm using more than 40% of max power at 70mph if power vs speed is a squared or higher relationship and max speed is 110mph.
On the other hand everyone who has added an intercooler to these trucks reports substantially better fuel economy, so who an I to argue with reality?
By the sound of it the Maartens version from AAM in Holland is the best engineered solution, especially for the 1HD-FT motor with its more complex crossover pipe and manifold - but it ain't cheap! He quoted 1735 Euros fitted in 2003, so I reckon nudging =A31400 by the time you've driven over there & stayed two nights. (No, I wouldn't try doing it myself!)
If it gives 20% better economy, or say =A316/tankful at current prices, that needs 88 tanks full (ie 44+k miles), giving a payback period of nearly 4 years. Hmm, not out of the question, but still expensive.
CB
| Hi Christopher,
| On my 1HD-FT I picked up a easy 20% improvement in economy
| with Maartens intercooler. I put this down to a combination
| of two things without the intercooler I was pumping air itno
| the inlet manifold at 85-110 degrees C with the intercooler
| this has dropped to 20-35 degrees C which effectively
| improves volumetric efficiency (larger mass of air in the
| cylinders) and you end up with so much more mid range torque
| in general driving you are surfing on the strong mid range
| torque not having to rev the engine to get it to do
| something. The truck is much more relaxing to drive as it is
| so much more responsive. I have seen similar results on many
| different diesels. It is feasible to get quite big gains in
| power, close to 100%, yet while cruising gain substantial
| improvements in economy, I know this tends to sound counter
| intuitive and it generally is when making big power gains ona
| petrol engine but diesel turbo's are different animals.
|
| Cheers,
| Craig.
____________________________________________________________
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Guest
Hey Christopher
I agree with you if it wont pay back than unless you use the extra power or
torque then why bother at all. I have got quotes from others but not too
sure about the quality as yet. I need to know more about the ins and outs of
intercoolers and how thay are made and when differences there is between
each model that will make it better or worse.
So I have to ask more questions of more people to get to a decision.
I know Allosport have quoted me a lot less than what you said but again need
to look futher into it as price is important but not every thing. But like
you said every one who has fitted the bigger exhaust and or the intercooler
report beter every thing in performance etc.
Sometimes I have the luxury of not knowing enough about a lot of things so
dont have a conflict in my head against what I know versus facts from
others. As I dont know much I tend to rely on facts from a lot of people and
then totally rely on the facts from a very few whom I concider know a lot
and I trust.
cheers
john92HDJ 80 1HDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Bell" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ELCO] intercooler
Craig
I can see that not having to push it to high revs to accelerate would help,
but I'd have thought that this effect would be less marked with a manual box
and a light right foot.
But I still struggle to see how, at constant speed and hence constant revs,
there can be much improvement in economy.
Perhaps the fuel/air mixture at (say) 70mph is too rich and adding a greater
mass of air improves matters. But I find this surprising since all the
mixture curves I've seen for diesels suggest that the mixture is usually too
lean until you reach about 80% power, at which point it goes too rich. And I
can't believe that I'm using more than 40% of max power at 70mph if power vs
speed is a squared or higher relationship and max speed is 110mph.
On the other hand everyone who has added an intercooler to these trucks
reports substantially better fuel economy, so who an I to argue with
reality?
By the sound of it the Maartens version from AAM in Holland is the best
engineered solution, especially for the 1HD-FT motor with its more complex
crossover pipe and manifold - but it ain't cheap! He quoted 1735 Euros
fitted in 2003, so I reckon nudging ?1400 by the time you've driven over
there & stayed two nights. (No, I wouldn't try doing it myself!)
If it gives 20% better economy, or say ?16/tankful at current prices, that
needs 88 tanks full (ie 44+k miles), giving a payback period of nearly 4
years. Hmm, not out of the question, but still expensive.
CB
| Hi Christopher,
| On my 1HD-FT I picked up a easy 20% improvement in economy
| with Maartens intercooler. I put this down to a combination
| of two things without the intercooler I was pumping air itno
| the inlet manifold at 85-110 degrees C with the intercooler
| this has dropped to 20-35 degrees C which effectively
| improves volumetric efficiency (larger mass of air in the
| cylinders) and you end up with so much more mid range torque
| in general driving you are surfing on the strong mid range
| torque not having to rev the engine to get it to do
| something. The truck is much more relaxing to drive as it is
| so much more responsive. I have seen similar results on many
| different diesels. It is feasible to get quite big gains in
| power, close to 100%, yet while cruising gain substantial
| improvements in economy, I know this tends to sound counter
| intuitive and it generally is when making big power gains ona
| petrol engine but diesel turbo's are different animals.
|
| Cheers,
| Craig.
____________________________________________________________
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Hi guys-that's what i've got for some time ago and yet haven't
decided what to do:
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" <[Email address removed]>
Date: December 23, 2005 12:05:18 AM GMT+01:00
To: Lubomir Kolev <[Email address removed]>
Cc: "All American Imports - Sales Dept." <[Email address removed]>, All American Imports <[Email address removed]>
Subject: Re: Intercooler
Reply-To: [Email address removed]
On 20 Dec 2005 at 16:30, Lubomir Kolev wrote:
Hi Willem
Do you know someone in Holand who can install intercooler for my HDJ
80-96mod and what might be the effect of it?
Seasons Greetings
Lubo
Hello Lubo,
I have only one good address I can recommend to you, All American
Imports in Kaatsheuvel/Holland, who not only sells intercoolers, but
is also designer & producer (as well as for various turbo-
configurations and other 1HD-(F)T(E) engine tuning), address see
below.
As far as results/performance goes, here some stuff you might want to
read, in particular about the almost mandatory combination of a
better/larger exhaust (can all be ordered from the same shop):
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/1hd-intc.txt
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/80_intercooler.txt
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/80_exhau.txt
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/1hd-ft_fuelpump-calibration.txt
(only the latter I have not done yet, as ours doesn't seem to be
restricted in this context in any way)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All American Imports
(ask for Maarten Verschure or George Muskens)
Veerweg 6
Kaatsheuvel
The Netherlands, Europe
Voice: +31 416 540167
Fax: +31 416 272304
Email: [Email address removed]
[Email address removed]
http://www.all-american.nl/
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(this message CC to AAI, so that they know who sent you to them, and
can perhaps already send you some information & prices by email)
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
<[Email address removed]>
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
But still the best one to consult I think is Craig Vinsent-but he
wrote so much on that subject so I think he got tired to write it
again(I tried to save his last 'article' but manage somehow to save
only the picture :-(
Good luck guys!!!!!!!!
Lubo
HDJ80-96mod
On May 27, 2006, at 12:48 PM, John Byrne wrote:
> Hey Christopher
> I agree with you if it wont pay back than unless you use the extra
> power or torque then why bother at all. I have got quotes from
> others but not too sure about the quality as yet. I need to know
> more about the ins and outs of intercoolers and how thay are made
> and when differences there is between each model that will make it > better or worse.
> So I have to ask more questions of more people to get to a decision.
> I know Allosport have quoted me a lot less than what you said but
> again need to look futher into it as price is important but not
> every thing. But like you said every one who has fitted the bigger
> exhaust and or the intercooler report beter every thing in
> performance etc.
> Sometimes I have the luxury of not knowing enough about a lot of
> things so dont have a conflict in my head against what I know
> versus facts from others. As I dont know much I tend to rely on
> facts from a lot of people and then totally rely on the facts from
> a very few whom I concider know a lot and I trust.
> cheers
> john92HDJ 80 1HDT
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Bell"
> <[Email address removed]>
> To: <[Email address removed]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 11:23 AM
> Subject: RE: [ELCO] intercooler
>
>
> Craig
>
> I can see that not having to push it to high revs to accelerate
> would help, but I'd have thought that this effect would be less
> marked with a manual box and a light right foot.
>
> But I still struggle to see how, at constant speed and hence
> constant revs, there can be much improvement in economy.
>
> Perhaps the fuel/air mixture at (say) 70mph is too rich and adding
> a greater mass of air improves matters. But I find this surprising > since all the mixture curves I've seen for diesels suggest that the > mixture is usually too lean until you reach about 80% power, at
> which point it goes too rich. And I can't believe that I'm using
> more than 40% of max power at 70mph if power vs speed is a squared
> or higher relationship and max speed is 110mph.
>
> On the other hand everyone who has added an intercooler to these
> trucks reports substantially better fuel economy, so who an I to
> argue with reality?
>
> By the sound of it the Maartens version from AAM in Holland is the
> best engineered solution, especially for the 1HD-FT motor with its
> more complex crossover pipe and manifold - but it ain't cheap! He
> quoted 1735 Euros fitted in 2003, so I reckon nudging =A31400 by the > time you've driven over there & stayed two nights. (No, I wouldn't > try doing it myself!)
>
> If it gives 20% better economy, or say =A316/tankful at current
> prices, that needs 88 tanks full (ie 44+k miles), giving a payback
> period of nearly 4 years. Hmm, not out of the question, but still
> expensive.
>
> CB
>
>
> | Hi Christopher,
> | On my 1HD-FT I picked up a easy 20% improvement in economy
> | with Maartens intercooler. I put this down to a combination
> | of two things without the intercooler I was pumping air itno
> | the inlet manifold at 85-110 degrees C with the intercooler
> | this has dropped to 20-35 degrees C which effectively
> | improves volumetric efficiency (larger mass of air in the
> | cylinders) and you end up with so much more mid range torque
> | in general driving you are surfing on the strong mid range
> | torque not having to rev the engine to get it to do
> | something. The truck is much more relaxing to drive as it is
> | so much more responsive. I have seen similar results on many
> | different diesels. It is feasible to get quite big gains in
> | power, close to 100%, yet while cruising gain substantial
> | improvements in economy, I know this tends to sound counter
> | intuitive and it generally is when making big power gains ona
> | petrol engine but diesel turbo's are different animals.
> |
> | Cheers,
> | Craig.
> ____________________________________________________________
> Electronic mail messages entering and leaving Arup business
> systems are scanned for acceptability of content and viruses
> --
> European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
> Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date:
> 26/05/2006
>
>
> --
> European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
> Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Craig;
Can't compare with the standard 1 HD-T engine.
Because I bought my 80 fitted with Maartens intercooler fitted.
It's pretty economic for a big engine compared with my other 4x4.
And you have ample power when you need it. A real pleasure to drive.
Can't fault the installation in any way. This guy knows his cruisers.
The economy factor really kicks in on the long haul.
As with an increase in power, I don't do a lot of high power output driving
myself. Sand-dunes and such.
A while back I was towing about 2.5 tonnes with the truck and it didn't even
break out a sweat ;-)
Cheers
Chris
Toy HDJ80 1994, 2.5" OME, intercooled,
285/75R16 BFG AT
Belgium
http://shop.kapaza.be/Colleman/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi all,
I remember that someone (was it you, Julian?) mentioned once a
possibility of adapting the inlet manifold from a HZ or KZ engine to
build an intercooler for the HDJ engine. I am considering such a
project in the future but because in my LC the engine bay is full of
other stuff, the only place available for the intercooler is on top of
the engine. Has anyone done it yet?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Nissan use an intercooler on the top of the engine, quite small, with a duct
in the bonnet for cool air supply. Can measure one up if you interested.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 01 June 2006 11:19
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] intercooler
Hi all,
I remember that someone (was it you, Julian?) mentioned once a
possibility of adapting the inlet manifold from a HZ or KZ engine to
build an intercooler for the HDJ engine. I am considering such a
project in the future but because in my LC the engine bay is full of
other stuff, the only place available for the intercooler is on top of
the engine. Has anyone done it yet?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80

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Guest
Roman
I too have been thinking about an intercooler. I haven't got anything else
in my engine bay - yet - but assume you have a compressor and extra battery
+ switching system...+++ ?
Would be interested in further thoughts.
Jeremy
On 1/6/06 11:18, "Roman" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Malcolm,
That was my idea, too, to make a scoop on the bonnet forcing air
through the intercooler which sits horizontally above the rocker cover
and is directly integrated with the inlet manifold.
The big question is - if it's small enough to go into a scooped recess
in the bonnet, will it be big enough to make a difference for the
temperature of inlet air ?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 6/1/06, Malcolm Bagley <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Roman
Have you thought about the air to liquid intercoolers as thay are small, go
over the engine, dont need space but are expensive, compared to the air to
air.
cheers
john92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
John,
I have, but they are more complicated and require even more space for
plumbing. AFAIK they sit in front of the coolant radiator.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 6/1/06, John Byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Roman,
If you can't fit one of Maartens front mount then a water one will take
up much less room but budget on close to twice the price of Maartens for
a properly engineered one. See
http://www.are.com.au/feat/custcar/Craig Bond L-Cruiser.htm Top
mount air cooled I wouldn't waste my time unless you intend to use a
waterspray or CO2 cooling on it.
Cheers,
Craig.
Roman wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
In theory and air to liquid (or is that liquid to air) can go any were but
if over the engine it would probably be the highest point in the circuit and
an air trap.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 01 June 2006 12:01
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] intercooler
John,
I have, but they are more complicated and require even more space for
plumbing. AFAIK they sit in front of the coolant radiator.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 6/1/06, John Byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
go

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Guest
I have wondered how effective the top mounted air unit is, would it be
justifiable if the normal driving was "high speed" ie motorway and so air
flow would be reasonable?
I have spent quite a few hours doing generator load tests with engines,
usually between 4 to 16 litres displacement, (and some 30 to 70 litres but
they are a little different).
We generally use one of 3 engines but the same engine can be normally
aspirated, turbo, turbo with intercooler (air to air before radiator) and
turbo with bigger intercooler, giving rise to a large number of
combinations. The tests include load acceptance and a heat run, all the
engines behave similarly for the heat run, with engine temp at about 88degC
and oil 94degC, but ability to accept step loads varies greatly with the
turbo causing some lag and intercoolers adding to that.
I will have to try a water spray setup sometime!
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 01 June 2006 12:29
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] intercooler
Hi Roman,
If you can't fit one of Maartens front mount then a water one will take
up much less room but budget on close to twice the price of Maartens for
a properly engineered one. See
http://www.are.com.au/feat/custcar/Craig Bond L-Cruiser.htm Top
mount air cooled I wouldn't waste my time unless you intend to use a
waterspray or CO2 cooling on it.
Cheers,
Craig.
Roman wrote:

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