it just keeps coming

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Hi Guys
Ok my luck or lack of it knows no bounds.
Out for the day in Dublin about 60 miles away from home and the cruiser decides to break down.
I have been very nice to it and dont even talk cross to it at all.
Turning a corner at lights on a duel cabbage way it decides to loose power.
The front CV is busted.
I had none of the tell tell sounds like clucking or anything like it, just severe immediate failure.
For those of you who dont have my experience of things going wrong here are the symptoms of a CV failure.
(1) Lose of power or movement even with the engine revs and all else working fine.
(2) A whinning sound from the front end of the cruiser.
(3) You will come to a stop very soon because you now no longer have any drive to any of the wheels.
(4) Now your stopped you can check to see if it is the CV by putting it in gear and gentle try to move, if you hear the whinning take it out of gear.
If you have an aoto box and its in D dont try to put it in P for a while because it wont go in and will make a lot of crunching noises because something is still spinning.
Anyway I now have to get MR T to strip it all down and see what happened, should be fun.
The first time a CV went on me the splines at the drive flange at the end of the Cv shaft were to blame.
The second time the cage with the ball bearings broke
apart into a lot of tiny bits.
This time I wont know untill its taken apart next week.
I think while its all apart I will ask them to replace in inner oil seals, strip the other CV housing and repack and get the front brake discs skimmed to see if that improves the brake pedal shutter, well while its all apart I thought it would be a good idea.
I would love to get someone to do the work in my drive way and assist but the mechanics I know dont do that, so Im stuck with leaving it into MR T or should I say them collecting it their flat bed after it arrives here on another flat bed from Dublin.
While its all apart would it be a good idea to replace the bolts/nuts that hold the ball joints onto the axle as this may be the next thing to break.
Someone else on the list had this happen to them and if it did the wheel could come off, am I right just while its all apart.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Morning John,
Sorry to hear your news.
When you replaced the CVs last time, did you also replace the end plate
that the splines from the CV go into that then bolts onto the hub with
the 8 studs, conical washers, etc?
If you are replacing the CVs, you should always replace the end plates,
particular with the older models that have a smaller contact point.
When you talk to Mr T, ask then to replace the CV with a longer one,
and get the newer end plate that is deeper - these newer components (I
think they came in around 1992 or 1994) have about double the contact
area and were introduced to prevent exactly the problem you have
encountered.
I would get them to check the brakes before doing the skimming.
Out of interest, did they fit the disks originally? - if they did they
can pay to get them sorted.
Don't forget that you can remove the front prop shaft and then engage
the Centre Diff Lock and drive like that - basically in 2wd/rear wheel
drive.
I doubt it - the steering knuckle bearings and the spigots that they
are on are very strong - you only need to replace these if there is
movement in the actual knuckle - I generally recommend replacing the
bearings every 100,000miles or so - more as a precaution - most of the
ones I have done have been partly worn (still plenty of life in them)
but the whole steering does feel a bit tighter as a result.
I replaced mine before Morocco (@ 150,000miles) and the top bearings
were pretty rusty (I used to regularly take the car through a ford)
with the bearing cage on one side had almost collapsed - when I held
the knuckle top and bottom there was obvious movement and a reasonable
amount of wobble coming through the steering on motorway and more
obviously on rough tracks.
I can't remember who it was, but the problem they had was that the
wheel bearing collapsed (I suspect that hub nuts came loose) and then
the wheel and hub tried coming off the axle leading to the stub axle
sheering as well as the disk.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Oh John you are the guy with worst luck than me have! I am feel sorry
for you loosing all drive wheels there in Dublin. Did you try to put
locking on the center differentiel so the vehicle would advance by use
only the rear drive axles.
My 80 is 1992 like your and I have put in bigger front CV beefield
joint from newer 80. May be this help you too? Like the Julien says.
2007/8/5, john byrne <[Email address removed]>:
 
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Hi Benoit
Thank you for your reply.
I did ask the rescue guy if he would disconnect the front prop, but he would
not.
I did not want to use the centre diff lock just in case it failed later on
the way home on the motorways later on and was not sure if it would work
anyway and I did not know what kind of failure happened other than it was
the CV.
As you say, Julian has as usual been very helpfull to me.
We think I can replace the non ABS CV with a ABS CV just by taking off the
ABS ring.
If this is the case I can benefit from longer splines both on the CV and the
drive flange of about 8mm or about 40% extra contact which would be great.
At the moment I cant get Milner or any one else to say for sure if this is
the case and other suppliers only sell the CVs but not the drive flanges so
could be a problem buying from two sources to maych the parts .
But then what do I know, it may be trial and error.
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Hi Julian
Re > When you talk to Mr T, ask then to replace the CV with a longer
one,
and get the newer end plate that is deeper - these newer components (I
think they came in around 1992 or 1994) have about double the contact
area and were introduced to prevent exactly the problem you have
encountered.
Do you know if the Milners ones do the job in this instance?
Cheers
Niall
HDJ80 - '95
 
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John
Bummer.
If you're getting the inner axel seals done you might want to consider
getting the full seal system done on the knuckle housing - depends on
whether or not they were done the last time. If these seals are
knackered - there's a possibility that the swivel housing bearings are
knackered from water ingress. The six bolts that hold these seals in
should be replaced if showing any sign of rust - I pulled the head off
one of mine when torquing up and am going to have to get it drilled
out.
I'll give you a shout when I'm doing my CV's if you want to see how its
done - You'll see how to do the all the seals and bearing tightening
procedures aswell as brake discs and pads, re-packing bearings etc, etc
etc
Won't be for a while as I'm working away from home
Removing the front drive shaft is easy enough - you should keep a
socket set and overalls with you at all times.
Niall
 
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Hey Niall
I was talking to a guy in Milners this morning and they do the longer shafts
with the longer splines plus the drive flange to match.
After talking to Julian yesterday I had decided this was the way to go,
longer shaft and longer splines = more contact surface area and result is
stronger CV.
The longer ones are the ABS type but it seems you can take the ABS ring off
or it may fit just as is anyway.
I dont know Just going by what Julian and the guy in Milners have said.
I have a spare CV with me at the moment but will wait for delivery of the
new longer CV and then see for myself what the difference is.
Brian said he knows a guy who may be able to help which would be great.
But thanks for the offer its a pity its not times perfect but then if it was
I wouldn't be having all this crappy luck in the first place.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Somers" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] it just keeps coming
 
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Hi Guys
Just a question or two while im wating for the new CVs to arrive.
I went out to start the cruiser, just to keep the batteries charged while
it sits.
Even though I can drive it while the CDL is locked I have chosen not too so
I dont do more damage.
Anyway I took the AT out of P and then tried to put it back into P and all I
got for my trouble was a grinding sound.
I gave the cruiser my expert once over eye yea right and noticed the front
prop spinning while the engine is at idle and the cruiser is not moving.
This is why I cant engage P but now I would like to know why the prop can
spin and yet the cruiser is not moving.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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John,
The prop can spin because the splines on your cv joint are stripped so the
halfshaft on that side is spinning (at twice the rate of the prop). The
normal creep you get with an auto when you release the brake is what is
driving the prop.
By all means take it out of Park (you won't be going anywhere without
locking the centre diff) but make sure you turn the engine off before you
try to put it back into Park or you'll break the park pawl in your gearbox
leading to another expensive repair.
You'd probably be doing less damage driving it with the centre diff locked
than running it stationery with it unlocked - whilst you're doing this
you're continually grinding the remains of the splines together.
Best of luck,
Toby 1990 HDJ80
Edissero Ltd.
 
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Hi Toby
So if I run the engine while stationary and selected N
the splines are still rotating is that correct
SNIP
 
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Hi Toby
Decided to start the cruiser in N and have a look at the front prop and
there it was rotating .
How can this happen when its in N ,no gear selected just the engine running.
The rear one is stationary, so is the power to rotate the front prop coming
from the engine running through the AT then through the transfere case.
If so, normally does this mean that there is still power going to all wheels
even when the AT is in N.
If so why does it not move crawl slowly.
Or am I thinking and talking crap again, just trying to understand really
What is a park pawl and if it went or broke would it mean a gearbox strip
down or just the lose of the P function.
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Hi John,
Whilst the box is in neutral the flow of the oil will still spin the prop a
bit, but there won't be any force behind it - you should be able to stop it
with your hand, although not advisable - you might end up grabbing it by a
balancing weight which might cut into your hand before it stops!!
If your front axle was working you wouldn't see any movement - obviously!!
BTW - have you taken the wheel off and the dust cap to see if it is the
splines that have gone?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Hi Julian
I managed to take front wheels off one at a time and the dust caps too.
I started the cruiser and I could see the front prop spinning slowly but
there was no movement at either end of the shafts on either side.
So would this mean its further in that the problem lies, maybe the cage.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Hi John,
Most likely.
I would suspect a snapped CV - they tend to snap just inside the end
plate.
Jack up each side at a time and try to rotate the wheel - with the car in
park you should be able to tell which side is broken - it will be the side
that the the wheel can be turned a full circle - normally with only one
side jacked up and the gearbox in Park you would only be able to turn the
lifted wheel a fraction of a turn as the slack is taken up in the
driveline.
Do check both sides - one thing that we haven't yet considered is that
there may be problems with either the half shafts or diff.
Having said that, if a half shafts had snapped, unless it had snapped
tight up against the CV I suspect that you will hear quite a bit of noise
when you tried driving.
The other thing is that the input shaft to the diff might have snapped.
There are so many ifs and buts that it will be tricky to pin down.
So, best to follow the following steps:
1. Jack up each side and see what happens when you try to move the wheel -
normally in park you will get a little movement as the slack is taken up
and you should see the propshaft move a bit - moving the wheel one way or
another will go show the propshaft movement more clearly.
Hopefully you will find that one of the wheels will turn relatively freely
- you might feel a little bit of grating, but not much. Actually on the
wheel that turns freely, you should try to take off the dust cap and try
wiiggling the splined end in and out - if it has snapped it should move in
and out a bit reasonably freely. If the CV hasn's snapped there it will
be harder to move in and out because you will be pushing and pulling the
weight of the whole CV.
Now if you find that both wheels turn completely with relative ease it
could well be down to the Diff input shaft - sorry should have thought of
that sooner.
Anyway, give it a try and let us know how you get on.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Hi Julian
Thanks for your reply.
I jacked up the front end, put the box in P and the passenger side wheel
will move continually but with a grating sound and not smoothly.
The drivers side wheel will move continually and no sound of grating and is
smooth.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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John
Out of interest.
When the failure happened.
Did you:
1 - Have full lock on
2 - Accelerate hard
I ask because I've read that doing both at the same time are more
likely to bring on failure....
Thanks
Niall
HDJ80
 
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If you look at a CV joint and think about how the force is transmitted you
will see why full lock and acceleration would show up a weakness, parts that
are in plain compression during straight ahead driving are subjected to much
more complex forces in a corner.
Other factor (not present here) is reversing up an obstacle, like the rocks
the Americans crawl over. The weight on the front adds to the traction and
they often break CV's but a combination of the three, full lock, power and
reversing on a slope.
Of course only relevant to the CV cage, shouldn't make a difference to
splines, shafts etc, although perhaps full lock puts more torque through one
side?
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
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16:06
 
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Malcolm
Re > If you look at a CV joint and think about how the force is
transmitted you
will see why full lock and acceleration would show up a weakness, parts
that
are in plain compression during straight ahead driving are subjected to
much
more complex forces in a corner.
Have also read (on some of the yank sites) that incorrectly adjusted
steering leads to failures - ie if your steering allows you to
oversteer, you are more likely to have a failure.
Not sure how you check this - tie rod end adjustment perhaps....
Cheers
Niall
 
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Don't know about new LC but the J4 series have a steering stop that you
adjust the full lock travel with. I can imagine the problem could occur
when someone finds they can add some lock after adding wheel spacers or
altering the axles, so they wind in the stop, increase the lock and bust a
CV.
Just getting psyched up to change all the steering joints on a 40 series -
got some bushes on order for the springs and am going to take the whole lot
apart at the same time. Giving the threads a dose of penetrating oil every
few days in preparation!
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.8/941 - Release Date: 07/08/2007
16:06
 
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Hi Guys
I would really like to strip the whole thing down but cant which is crap.
I was only taking off from traffic lights and turning, no sudden take off or
severe turning or rock crawling either, if I had been I would understand but
the cruiser only gets normal driving and is well looked after.
Maybe thats the problem I need to abuse it and it will last for ages.
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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