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Manual gearbox oil discussion.

Dave2000

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So my car went back on the road last night with her recon GB and TB and new clutch in place :dance: The gears feel a little heavy with a smooth but slow change on the 1-2 and 3-2 shifts, all other gears definitely shift easier, very quiet in operation was also noted, it was still cold so not a decent evaluation. There is no ITV (MOT) current so it was a quick run a around the block, next week I will try a proper drive. Also of note I had drained the diesel out of the tank and refilled with fresh and a new fuel filter, and despite standing for over a year the engine started first turn! :clap:

The place the gearbox/transfer were purchased from offered a limited warranty and advised I should use 80/90 EP oil this would maintain the warranty along with a 'documented' change at 5000 km's again replacing with the same EP grade.

What I want to do is ask the question: What if when the warranty expires I run a good quality synthetic oil? Will the modern oil that was not about 20 years ago, or probably more correctly was not affordable that far back keep the shift quality good and prevent the wear that takes place at bay?

Thoughts.......:think:

regards

Dave
 
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Dave Dave.....EP is a No No. It attacks the bronze synchro rings. You wouldn't want that would you! EP has additives for extra slippery qualities needed for hypoid axles which the gearbox does not need and can't cope with. Also friction is needed for the rings to work. If the garage has put EP in then I should drain it and put 75/90 semi synthetic general purpose gear oil. This should give you a good gear change as well.

You can't get the general purpose gear oil described in the owners manual any more. I went to Toyota and bought their current part number for my gear box.
 
The place the gearbox/transfer were purchased from offered a limited warranty and advised I should use 80/90 EP oil this would maintain the warranty along with a 'documented' change at 5000 km's again replacing with the same EP grade.

What I want to do is ask the question: What if when the warranty expires I run a good quality synthetic oil? Will the modern oil that was not about 20 years ago, or probably more correctly was not affordable that far back keep the shift quality good and prevent the wear that takes place at bay?

Thoughts.......:think:

regards

Dave

Dave, Toyota recommend 75/90 GL4/GL5, (but that was 25 years ago ;-) ) so assuming you are in cooler climate, 80/90 could cause cold-shift problems.
A lot of cruiser owners in Aust. swear by Castrol VMX-M for smooth changes.
Mine has Redline synthetic in it (was there when I got it) but when I replace it I will be going with VMX-M plus the trusty Proma MBL-8 to take care of friction wear.
It changes quite well when cold with synthetic.
Cheers. PhillT
 
Using a syn or s/syn oil certainly improves gearbox changes especially when cold but they will always be relatively 'slow' compared to a short throw box. The manual box has been criticised for this by magazine testers but what the heck! It's a large overland capable 4x4 and not some nippy little sports job.
 
I would think GL4 is better friction for gear change than GL5.

In the 50's you were recommended to put engine oil in your car gearbox............but not in the back axle :icon-biggrin:.
 
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Hmmmm, now I am hoping I imagined the EP and actually did know about EP and bronze bushes. Perhaps I thought 'ah that's ok it is NOT EP' and the thought was gone in a moment :oops: I will check when the workshop re-opens next week.

What did I say the other day Frank about losing it? :icon-biggrin:

It is definitely definitely 80/90 and I guessed this should be ok weight wise as the climate here is pretty warm most of the year.

I will pop in and have a look at the container, IF it is not EP then it can stay until the change, by then this thread will have run it's course and there will be some more genuine experience coming through with what people are actually using and the shift quality.

Thanks so far guys and girls keep it coming.

regards

Dave
 
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OK, having spent a few hours looking at various ‘80’ forums about the manual gearbox and of course the right/wrong oils, there does not seem to be a conclusion as to the correct oil. There are the various ‘this works for me’ all of which is fine but, there is nothing definitive as of yet. Now whilst I know EP affected bronze bearings/synchromesh the packaging listed it as 80/90 gear oil but the write up on the rear shows it as a multi grade EP. I have EP API GL5, and GL4 might be better however, GL4 has EP additive, as does 3 and 2, only GL1 has no EP, I did not become an oil expert overnight but I have spent some time researching the subject. It seems that the term EP will ultimately be replaced by the API GL rating system.The suppliers of my reconditioned GB and TB advised 80/90W EP gear oil, they did not mention the API GL rating. I asked for a good mineral oil 80/90 and that it was I got, it is API GL 5 which is the best but now know it has plenty of corrosive EP in it. I will drain it out later in the week but what do I replace it with? I had a look at the Morrison Lubricants siteas I have used them in the UK for some years: http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/lubricants/company.asp?wp=91 and this has shown that there ‘were’ 6 API GL ratings; I will not repeat them as the site is very clear in its explanations/specs and GL 1 is the ONLY version without EP.

Morrison points out that older and classic cars may have the bronze bearings so a no EP oil should be used, I queried this with the supplier of my gearbox to see what their thoughts are on this, I might get a reply this evening.The actual garage that helped with the install did not feel there would be an issue with the ‘5’ but admitted very little experience with this age of car, I have contacted Morrison for advice.

FWIW I have also looked through the Castrol site with regards to the VMX 80 manual transmission oil, this is being used extensively in 80’s going by the forum chat but it appears it ‘may’ actually have the EP additive in it, I hope this is not the case a there will be more than a few nice smooth changing gearboxes out there heading for destruction! They (Castrol) do recommend the VMX GL4 (EP content) for the gearbox BUT, they also say use a synthetic for non EP applications and yet EP has been added to synthetic oils; so that is worthy of note as VMX is not listed as synthetic, (your suggested 75/90 semi synth might be the way to go Frank) now add that Castrol ALSO recommend their ‘Castrol Universal 80/90’ for the gearbox and transfer and that is GL5!!! If you sit and read through spec sheets of the various offerings it does seem that any use over and above mild duty will need some form of EP or you are going to have to use something designed for an old tractor or go synthetic.

I have emailed Castrol technical to see if I can get clarification, it is a bloody minefield out there, Castrol for example offer the VMX but also say you can use XXXX but they are in effect pushing the VMX (profit driven) but say their cheaper oil can also be used both having ‘good cold shift characteristics’! I am waiting for a reply and in the meantime will drain the oil out of the GB and the TB; I just want what’s best for my car at the end of the day, I will get back as and when I hear anything.

Regards
Dave
 
Well Morrison came straight back to me and offered the following:

'The general consensus is that a 75W-90 oil meeting API GL4 is needed.

GL5 oils are fortified with EP additives to deal with highly stressed differentials, axles and hypoid gears under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and low speed/high torque conditions. These additives are known to attack yellow metals especially in classic and vintage vehicles.

The oil we would recommend would be our Lodexol FS 75W-90. I have attached the technical data sheet for our product. This product is referred to as total driveline covering API GL 1- 5. The GL5 additives do not become activated until they are subjected to the harsh conditions pertinent to GL5 requirements.'

I have returned the email with the specific question 'does this product have an EP additive', I will let you know what comes back.

regards

Dave
 
Toyota recommends a "multipurpose gear oil API GL4 or 5 SAE75W 90" for both boxes so thats what I went with in the form of Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W 90 which is GL4.
 
Toyota recommends a "multipurpose gear oil API GL4 or 5 SAE75W 90" for both boxes so thats what I went with in the form of Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W 90 which is GL4.
Forgot to reply about your shift speed comment, sorry about that. The car I sold just before moving to Spain allowed me to pretty much get over the speed bug, the LC lazy shift goes hand in hand with the HGV driving so no problem there. I just want to have a lube in there that does the job, made a cock up allowing the GL5 install, will sort that this week.

I looked up the spec of the Syntrans and it does meet with GL 3 and 4 specs, perhaps the EP is reduced? Out of curiosity why did you not follow the VMX trend?

regards

Dave
 
I couldn't find VMX locally so just looked for a syn oil of the correct grade and spec.
 
Hi Dave

I think as you go up the scale GL3, GL4, GL5 they all have the EP additive but the 5 is the most concentrated.

If you want to be really safe like me go to Toyota. They still do oil for the 80 gearbox but it is 75/90 semi synthetic gearbox oil. You cannot buy the general purpose gearbox oil any more recommended in the original owners handbook. The Toyota part number is T08885-80606 per 1 litre. Cost me £37-02 but I sleep well at night.
 
I use Morris oils all the time but I had the same problem with my Iveco gearboxes, I ended up getting synthetic gearbox oil for trucks from smith and Allen. The only people who did a non ep grade gearbox oil as approved by Man etc in 5l containers as opposed to 255l barrels..
 
This is all good info guys, got it Towpack just availability and you are obviously happy with the change. @Muckypup, as mentioned I also used Morrison and also Comma oils for years and never had an oil related problem in any application, interesting that the Morrison oil was no good for your transmission 'type'. I have yet to have a root through my emails for any replies so off to do that now. I hear what you are saying Frank, that Toyota part number is it a GL4 grade so has 'some' EP?

regards

Dave
 
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I don't know Dave but if Toyo recommend it I think they have thought about the synchro rings. If you order oil for an 80 manual box that is the part number they supply.

If you have a choice perhaps go for a thinner oil as this helps the synchro ring teeth bite into the cones and improves the gear change. That is why the change is better with a hot box.
 
OK from Castrol I got a reply which makes sense:
Hi Dave,

Early EP additives were active sulphur – and when it got hot this could be quite aggressive to yellow metals so it was always suggested not to use hypoid oils in units with yellow metals. Hypoid oils are normally found in back axles where the gears have greater loads and these normally have a GL-5 rating. Modern additives tend to be less aggressive, but we normally suggest as a safety margin to not use GL-5 rated products in synchromesh units and ones with yellow metals.


GL-4 EP ratings are classed as “mild” and are what I would suggest would be suitable – we also have some “Universal” products that can cover GL-5/5 ratings using specialised chemistries that again, are not aggressive as the old additives.

I would suggest Castrol EP 80W-90 would be suitable, or better still – Universal 75W-90 which is a part synthetic and a good all round oil suitable for low and high EP requirements. Being a 75W-90 means low viscosity when cold for easy gear change and the working viscosity is a 90 meaning good lubrication and wear protection.

So that is what Castrol recommends for the LC 80, I will also point out I was specific that it was the H151F gearbox fitted in the 80 that the enquiry was related to. I have also got a reply from Morrison:

Good morning Dave

You will require some additives to ensure protection in your gearbox (GL4) to deal with the moderate conditions of speed and load. This is dictated by Toyota themselves.

Lodexol FS 75W-90 is a total driveline product covering API GL 1- 5. It will contain EP additives but they do not become activated unless they are subjected to the harsh conditions applicable to GL5 conditions (i.e. – if they are needed).

So the Lodexol is a universal oil that adapts to conditions as and when they change.

So that has now thrown the cat amongst the VMX pigeons, and the Morrison reply also appears that is should not cause problems.

As an asides I popped into the local spares shop today and asked him to show me his range of gearbox oils, he brought out a mineral, a semi synthetic and a fully synthetic and ALL were GL 5! I asked to see what he had rated at GL 4, he came out with some no name 80/90w GL4, bottle covered in dust, I looked at the state of the bottle and he answered my question before I asked it, "we don't use this any more so this is the last one, 8 euros for 2 litres".

I think I will see what the specs are that Frank has on his Toyota oil, I will not shoot for it yet as I do not have a lot of faith in the main stealer. Last year I got called out to a noisy Toyota that had the D4-D engine, this has labels all over the engine stating ONLY 15/40W engine oil, Toyota had just serviced it and put in 10/40W. I queried it with the service manager as my Spanglish is better than my clients, he replied it was a cost cutting exercise by Toyota, they now only keep a bulk stock of 5/30 for ALL petrol engines and 10/40 for ALL diesels! He lost a customer with his "I think it should be all right", we purchased another OE filter and stopped at the local BP garage and grabbed some 15/40, change both and the engine was running nice an quiet again, oops sorry off rambling again, ok back on topic, any thoughts on the replies from the above vendors?

It does seem we have no choice to use an oil with an EP content whether we like it and our synchromesh lives will be shortened by that decision, is this what kills off the gearboxes in our Land Cruisers? Thinking of others doing rebuilds in the future are there alternative material synchro's that could be used?


regards

Dave
 
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Dave,
That is an interesting read. So, both Castrol and Morrison start out by recommending a GL4 spec oil. I'm certainly no oil chemist but the point made by Castrol regarding 'harmful' early EP additives being replaced by modern alternatives sounds plausible. Both companies then also state a 'universal' oil covering GL4 and 5 (1 to 5 in Morrison's case) will also be OK?! Personally I'm not entirely convinced on the 'intelligent' additives that do not become activated unless they are required but maybe that's just me being cynical and, as I said, I'm no expert. AFAIK, Toyota do not produce their own oil, the last oil I bought from a Toyota dealer, obviously badged up as Toyota (engine oil) was made by Mobil according to the guy on the parts counter so the oil Frank obtained may well have some EP additives, albeit of the modern variety? As for the wrong EP additives destroying gearboxes, again, personally, I'm not convinced. Are Toyota the only manufacturer who use/used to use yellow metals for their sync rings and do more modern boxes use different materials?
 
What do you think about Morris Eco - trans 75w/80 ?
Not quite the right heat range but then this is the UK. ...
gl4 rated with no ep and as used by trucks with gear boxes an awful lot like ours.
 
@Towpack, I too am wary of an additive that 'wakes up' and then goes 'back to sleep' when not needed. Over the years it has become apparent that manufacturers are recommending synthetic type lubricants more and more and GL5 is more often than not on the top of the list. Having said that, whether we like it or not modern cars are not designed to still be around in twenty years, cars have become like a washing machine, rarely breaks down but has a working life of around 5 years. If the GL5 is going to shorten the life of a typical cars gearbox to say 7 - 8 years who going to give a sod?

@Muckypup I did look at that and did not see a mention that it does NOT have EP, if you read the Morrison gearbox oil introduction it states that 'their' GL4 specification does have EP additives, of course you also have to purchase 25 litres for near on 280 quid!! The 80w is not quite heavy enough for the Spanish climate so (for me) it is no good. I agree the gearbox on our cars is pretty truck like, and I am under no illusion it is perfect for the traffic light Grand Prix, having said that I have been pretty hard on mine in the past but more on the odd occasion as opposed to every day. It does seem (at the moment) that we will have EP whether we like it or not, the EP giving us the 'sheer' protection as the gears mesh against each other, and of course we need the yellow metal in the synchromesh. At the moment the GL4 option seems to be where the wise money should go?

regards

Dave
 
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