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New/Old Tyre configuration
- Thread starter Patty
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maybe it has something to do with the length of the 80 and its weight distribution , front end digging while the rear floats ?
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My 80 under steers with no load in the back but when it's fully loaded up to the head lining it's much nicer to drive. I assume the designers were looking at medium weight in the car as optimum handling. My brother says to put a weaker rear ARB in if I drive unladen all the time.
I have always told customers my preference was for new at the front. My opinion is the fronts doing more work than the rear. I have to apply the thinking that my typical customer is not fishtailing, drifting, or anything outside of the norm. I do believe that most typical accidents are likely when someone pulls out in front of you, or a lack of concentration and you realise you need to brake in an emergency, the centre of gravity moving forward as you brake, this applies more weight to tyres that will receive the most braking power, yes the rear may have less grip but you will have more chance of steering, and with ABS activating the rear should not be locking/sliding anyway.
Michelin produced a document during the recession stating that new tyres should be fitted to the rear, they cited the reason to be reduce over steer when braking downhill in the wet. If people followed this advice it would actually increase tyre sales for a short period of time, not saying this is why they brought out the leaflet for this reason.
regards
Dave
Michelin produced a document during the recession stating that new tyres should be fitted to the rear, they cited the reason to be reduce over steer when braking downhill in the wet. If people followed this advice it would actually increase tyre sales for a short period of time, not saying this is why they brought out the leaflet for this reason.
regards
Dave
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I always thought it was for if there was a blow out. Safer if so to put old on rear. There's in car footage of a police car at high speed having a rear blow out in lane 3. Total mess.
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I’ve had blow outs both front and rear in a car in the past and the rear one was more of a handful. One day on a busy Belgian motorway, I was behind a little Renault 4 when his n/s rear blew and he went into a spin. I missed him, another truck in the slow lane just missed him, nobody got rear ended and he came to a halt facing the wrong way on the hard shoulder. His lucky day (apart from the laundry bill) !
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Difficult to one to call if a blow out is worse on the rear than on the front, and the reason I say this is that a 'proper' blowout is very rare nowadays, this ensures that plentiful examples are just as rare.
If the tyre stays on the rim or not will also colour your experience, and how you managed the event, Often a blowout is declared after the driver saw the tyre when he was standing on the side of the hard shoulder, the tyre a complete mangled mess, the reality was it may have been running very hot due to a slow puncture, the various layers delaminating before ultimate failure. Modern steering designs including steering angles that reduce drag on one side and power steering masking the effect as well.
It also depends on your driving skill/knowledge/experience for example, how many people apply power when they experience a blowout, not many I bet?
regards
Dave
If the tyre stays on the rim or not will also colour your experience, and how you managed the event, Often a blowout is declared after the driver saw the tyre when he was standing on the side of the hard shoulder, the tyre a complete mangled mess, the reality was it may have been running very hot due to a slow puncture, the various layers delaminating before ultimate failure. Modern steering designs including steering angles that reduce drag on one side and power steering masking the effect as well.
It also depends on your driving skill/knowledge/experience for example, how many people apply power when they experience a blowout, not many I bet?
regards
Dave
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Towpack
Well-Known Member
I've been fortunate enough never to have a blowout in a car but unfortunate to have what you might call a 'sudden deflation' on a bike at 60-70mph, luckily on the back tyre. There was a cut in the tyre around 10mm long and it went from full pressure to fully flat in maybe 10-15 secs or so. It happened on a long straight so just manifested itself as a nasty wriggle. On a bend or long curve would probably have been a different story and on a front tyre, forget it.
Had this happen on the caravan a few years ago on the M74 and the strange thing is I never noticed it. A passing car signalled something was up. Almost certainly a slow puncture resulting is an overheated and subsequently disintegrating carcass rather than a blowout.
Had this happen on the caravan a few years ago on the M74 and the strange thing is I never noticed it. A passing car signalled something was up. Almost certainly a slow puncture resulting is an overheated and subsequently disintegrating carcass rather than a blowout.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As above really, to the inexperienced that tyre may have been called a blowout.
You see this a lot on caravans and motor homes, the vehicle stands for 50 weeks of the year, along come the holidays, load up and go, tyres 'looked ok' when you left.
regards
Dave
As above really, to the inexperienced that tyre may have been called a blowout.
You see this a lot on caravans and motor homes, the vehicle stands for 50 weeks of the year, along come the holidays, load up and go, tyres 'looked ok' when you left.
regards
Dave
Towpack
Well-Known Member
The tyres were OK, up to pressure and no appreciable cracking or deterioration but it turned out that they tyre were standard 'car' tyres and not C rated as they should should have been with much stronger sidewalls for greater load carrying capacity. The tyre on the NS was the same so the holiday started with a call at a tyre shop in Dumbarton for 2 new C rated tyres. The outlet for the sink/shower exited just behind the OS wheel arch but it was completely missing with a hole in the floor! I'm guessing the tyre must've delaminated with the remnants of the treaded surface thrashing round, wiping out the pipes and end fitting. More expense.
Sorry Towpack, I hope you did not think I meant you? But is a very common cause of call outs during the August holiday season. I have seen tyres that looked 100%, let the air out so the tyre walls fold in and the cracks show out in quite an alarming way.
Most tyres that I get replaced here is due to the affects of the sun, very rare a worn tyre gets thrown away, almost always it is sidewalls rotting away.............don't start me off about sidewalls!!
regards
Dave
Most tyres that I get replaced here is due to the affects of the sun, very rare a worn tyre gets thrown away, almost always it is sidewalls rotting away.............don't start me off about sidewalls!!
regards
Dave
chadr
Well-Known Member
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3121/6-common-tire-myths-debunked-10031440/
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-rotation
http://kumhotyre.co.uk/kumho-news/should-you-fit-new-tyres-to-the-front-or-rear/
....and pretty much every single reputable source that I could find.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-rotation
http://kumhotyre.co.uk/kumho-news/should-you-fit-new-tyres-to-the-front-or-rear/
....and pretty much every single reputable source that I could find.
Your right Shayne most accidents IMO happen due to a panic reaction, again the amount of genuine blowouts these days means we do not get a lot of practice....thankfully.
Re the power, yes mate it is the normal reaction for HGV drivers. It is rare that we get true blowouts but delaminating of a remould is still very common today, no doubt you have seen the long pieces of tyre after this has happened, normally on a motorway?
When the delamination happens the lorry tries to pull quite hard towards the side of the tyre that is damaged, by applying power you negate a lot of the affect, this give you a chance to look for a safe place to stop, this would need to be for example not opposite a bus stop, the idea is to impose as little restriction to traffic flow, to help emergency services.
regards
Dave
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Ah makes sense in a lorry . I remember the mrs damaging a tyre on her old Rover when we were many miles from home . She wouldn't let me drive because it was illegal so i spent a deal of effort conditioning her NOT to react should the tyre blow . Sounds daft i'm sure but i just wanted to give her the benefit of 100th of a second to weigh up how to react . No brakes no reflex steering just let it roll on because you have all the time in the world to stop when your in control .
Was i wrong ?
Was i wrong ?
@chard
Some good finds there, whilst I agree with most it, there is no allowance for ABS. Also some contradictory information, for example if the road is wet or damp the tyres would be surfing, well is it wet or is it damp? The same guy also reckons it is better to be higher on pressure than lower over the manufactures recommendations, it would interesting if he would take the fall for it if it was proved the tyre pressures were too high reducing the tyre footprint?
I would also offer this hypothetical situation, you are negotiating a bend, coming in the opposite direction is someone who has entered the bend to fast, the driver has 'OK' tyres on the front but new on the rear, the fronts have locked and they have crossed the line and he is well setup to hit you head on, you also apply the brakes as hard as you can, (totally natural reaction), you have new tyres on the front and 'OK' on the back. Your rear tyres break away and your car over steers, and the front is tucking in and the rear is running out, you get hit in the side because you COULD steer. One of the most important rules of motoring is at all costs avoid a head on collision, due to the forces involved.
There are other things here for example, many years ago I was driving my then wife's Astra, driving very slowing in ice down hill headed towards a junction. I realised I was on 'glass'. I had absolutely loads of time to try and stop the vehicle before running across the junction, it was probably only doing around 10- 15 MPH but was gaining pace the usual cadence breaking, and so forth and it was not pulling up. I gave up trying to stop the car in the conventional way, turned the steering hard left and pulled up hard on the handbrake, the rear broke away and the car simply spun in it's own space and come to a stop still short of the junction.
So perhaps it is my experience (and 'most' of the local tyre shops), that the best should be on the front, perhaps due to our climate, it only tends to rain three days of the year........just about when the Tabernas trip is due.........
I think it is fair to say a lot of this is moot, given the advances in ABS and stability control systems that are being found in even the most basic of vehicles.
regards
Dave
Some good finds there, whilst I agree with most it, there is no allowance for ABS. Also some contradictory information, for example if the road is wet or damp the tyres would be surfing, well is it wet or is it damp? The same guy also reckons it is better to be higher on pressure than lower over the manufactures recommendations, it would interesting if he would take the fall for it if it was proved the tyre pressures were too high reducing the tyre footprint?
I would also offer this hypothetical situation, you are negotiating a bend, coming in the opposite direction is someone who has entered the bend to fast, the driver has 'OK' tyres on the front but new on the rear, the fronts have locked and they have crossed the line and he is well setup to hit you head on, you also apply the brakes as hard as you can, (totally natural reaction), you have new tyres on the front and 'OK' on the back. Your rear tyres break away and your car over steers, and the front is tucking in and the rear is running out, you get hit in the side because you COULD steer. One of the most important rules of motoring is at all costs avoid a head on collision, due to the forces involved.
There are other things here for example, many years ago I was driving my then wife's Astra, driving very slowing in ice down hill headed towards a junction. I realised I was on 'glass'. I had absolutely loads of time to try and stop the vehicle before running across the junction, it was probably only doing around 10- 15 MPH but was gaining pace the usual cadence breaking, and so forth and it was not pulling up. I gave up trying to stop the car in the conventional way, turned the steering hard left and pulled up hard on the handbrake, the rear broke away and the car simply spun in it's own space and come to a stop still short of the junction.
So perhaps it is my experience (and 'most' of the local tyre shops), that the best should be on the front, perhaps due to our climate, it only tends to rain three days of the year........just about when the Tabernas trip is due.........
I think it is fair to say a lot of this is moot, given the advances in ABS and stability control systems that are being found in even the most basic of vehicles.
regards
Dave
IMO that is spot on Shayne, grip the wheel a little tighter and try to let the car come to a stop of its own, worry about your underwear later.
Definite power on with a commercial, but I see no reason that an experienced driver would not apply the same process driving their car, but it is unlikely to happen with the typical car driver.
I cannot remember when I had the last blowout, bearing in mind I drive seven days a week, and a wide variety of customers cars, the nearest MOT station around a 45 minute drive away including some motorway. I still think it is a rare occurrence and from what I have seen, the cause is more often than not due to a sidewall getting damaged by accidently hitting a kerb or whatever, this creating a rupture just waiting to blow.
Gotta go...Grand Prix
regards
Dave
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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you Chadr , i don't think anyone can . There's too many variables . Personally i can't work out why a worn but road legal tyre would fail in its duty wherever you put it in a mix of old and new , and if it can why is it legal to change only one tyre ?
Dave is a firm believer in the benefits of abs where as i believe it was designed for planes so they could save on tyre rubber then sold to governments and made mainstream because it is a cash generator for insurance companies and we are probably both right despite on the face of it disagreeing .
Dave is a firm believer in the benefits of abs where as i believe it was designed for planes so they could save on tyre rubber then sold to governments and made mainstream because it is a cash generator for insurance companies and we are probably both right despite on the face of it disagreeing .
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Chadr. Lot of research you've done. The TPMS on my Golf is stunningly accurate. It came on when my wife was 1/2 way home and she reported in. The tyre with the puncture was 1 psi lower than the other 3 and they were the same a few days earlier as I regularly check her car. My friend with a Mazda had a similar experience and he could not even measure the difference with his gauge until he came out in the morning and the tyre was 1/2 flat.
TPMS can give false readings. Recently I decided to see what the golf was really like round some roundabouts in Bham. The bloke behind thought I was racing him so it did turn in to a bit of a race until my TPMS came on after one very fast exit with a bit of under steer. There was no puncture. Obviously the computer thought it was not possible. lol.
TPMS can give false readings. Recently I decided to see what the golf was really like round some roundabouts in Bham. The bloke behind thought I was racing him so it did turn in to a bit of a race until my TPMS came on after one very fast exit with a bit of under steer. There was no puncture. Obviously the computer thought it was not possible. lol.
chadr
Well-Known Member
TBH no - I can't claim any research; I just googled "new tyres on the front or rear" and those were the first few hit in Google - so about 5 seconds worth of "research" ;-).
My original post in this thread was paraphrasing a post from a good few years back on HonestJohn's Forum where a similar discussion was being had and most people, myself included at the time, said that they would put the newer tyres on the front - it just seemed intuitive; fronts do the steering AND most of the braking.....so it would be obvious wouldn't it??
It was only after some industry experts and professional drivers (i.e. traffic policemen etc) joined the discussion and they shared their experience and knowledge that the discussion turned from being mostly anecdotal to a fact/science based discussion.
