Planning a trip to France to off road - Don't!

[moggy1968]

Off roading in France is now banned, if you go on tracks you run the risk of massive fines. A dutch group of 15 vehicles were stopped in the Alps, 750 euro fine per vehicle. Payable immediately. Some couldn't pay so the vehicles were loaded on to a low loader and impounded, 150euro per day storage.
This is as a direct result of the irresponsible behaviour of travellers. IT will happen elswehere.

There are groups still offering off road trips to France, they are illegal and you risk losing your vehicle

 

[garygiles1963]

That's a huge bummer, I've only just started.

Have they stopped everyone driving off road, or groups. I can understand a group of 15 vehicles being undesirable.

Has anyone seen the ruling on this?

G.

 

[MarkW]

mmm, friends if mine have just left on an Alps off road trip and Valloire 4x4 show is in full swing atm. There are a lot of very large 4x4 groups every where who cause a lot of issues due to the group size and irresponsible behaviour, bad enough in itself but appalling when its organised tour groups. (15 cars in a group is far to big, imho 8 in a group is stretching it)

Be interesting to see how this develops

 

[Bob]

Sadly I think this will be the new norm. For every careful 4x4 user who respects lanes and closes gates etc, there's at least another who thinks the whole world is their personal playground for spinning wheels and making stuff muddy.

You can't stop the idiots without also stopping the genuine people. Where I live, there is miles and miles of forestry trails in the hills that are for walking only. I would only love to bring the cruiser up for a drive, but I know that if they were opened then the idiots, the quad bikes and the rubbish dumping would soon follow, so we continue to enjoy walking them in their unspoiled state

Pay & play is all you can do in Ireland unless it's private land

 

[froggy Steve]

First I have heard of it, and I belong to a couple of French clubs too. I will pose the question to them.......
Me thinks there would be riots and burnings of gov officials if it was the case. The chemins are public rights of way - hunters use them, unless there is a notice at each entry point to say they are closed (fire risk?) then they can be legally used by ANY road worthy vehicle.
Perhaps the dutch had ignored the closed sign?

No one is brave enough to take on the hunters in France!

 

[pyemaster]

Steve I've a couple of questions for you, without wanting to clog up the thread, do you have an email I could catch you on?

Thanks
Owen

 

[AndyCook]

Surely not a blanket ban, must be more details ?

 

[froggy Steve]

Steve I've a couple of questions for you, without wanting to clog up the thread, do you have an email I could catch you on?

Thanks
Owen

will pm

steve

 

[goodoldboy]

Here in Spain
Depending on the level of alert for forest fires driving in mountain or forest tracks can be prohibited - maybe it's related to this?.Some autonomous communities also restrict the number of trucks in a convoy.We see a fair amount of French groups here & they all seem friendly & respectable.On the spot fines & impounding of vehicles is not uncommon here...

 

[froggy Steve]

could perhaps be some truth - groups too large?????

Non mais si le chemin est interdit oui c'est le tarif.
No, but if the path is forbidden, yes, it's the fare.
Automatically translated

Et si plus de 12 véhicules +/-voir avec codever pour plus d'info il faut une autorisation les communes traversées
And if more than 12 vehicles + /- see with codever for more info, we need permission for the municipalities crossing
Automatically translated
Leboss J'ai déjà vu des gars se prendre une amende... et c'est 135e, pas 900
I've seen guys get fined... and it's 135th, not 900

pourquoi les chemins etant sur carte ign sont publiques donc ont peut y circuler sans dégrader si il n y a pas de panneaux.
And why the paths being on the ign map are public, so they can circulate without degradation if there are no signs.

 

[moggy1968]

I've just come back form an organised tour in the Italian Alps and it's a major problem there too. At present, it's still allowed but the organisers of the tour can see that ending in the next 5 years because of excessively large groups, people driving off the route, rubbish, excessive speeds etc etc. Europeans with their stickered up vehicles on a 'raid' tearing up someone elses land. I think it's a great shame that the lycra and rambler mobs think that the only people that should be allowed into this beautiful scenery are those capable of cycling or walking the considerable mileages involved, but at the moment many off roaders are shooting themselves in the foot. Many lanes, such as the Hannibal trail, have already been closed to vehicles.

The tour I was on was by Alpine Rovers. Small group (5 vehicles) and a gentle pace, covering maybe 30 miles a day. Their best case scenario for the future is that the Italians bring in a permit system. If you misbehave, you lose your permit and you don't get another. That seems eminently sensible to me, and a way to manage numbers and the way the lanes are used (controlling group size etc). I would love to see a similar system in this country to use forrestry commision tracks etcbut it will never happen. managing the problem surely has to be better than just banning people.

 

[moggy1968]

And just to really cheer you up, there are similar problems in Eastern Europe and Morocco which are likely to lead to increased restrictions on offroading

 

[MarkW]

mmm, not so sure. Whilst large groups are a problems and the increasing popularity is obvious in Morocco it brings in a huge tourist revenue, something the current King is very keen to see. Another factor is that 98% of the pistes are public roads. I can see increased regulation on the horizon but not a total ban.

Still its beyond belief the way some off roaders behave to ruin it for the majority. I couldn't believe seeing someone do an oil change in the desert and just left the oil on the ground and leaving their rubbish behind after every camp. This year I heard of a group trying to cross the border into Algeria, illegally and they really didn't see what they were doing was wrong.

There are also a lot of incorrect rumours circulating from various sources. Early in the year an English overlander was widely publishing statements online that wildcamping had been banned across Morocco. Turned out to be a load of rubbish and they had been caught by the police trying to wild camp in the middle of a big city and were quite rightly told to go to the camp site.

Respect the country, the customs and people of the places you visit or we'll see increasing limits on what we can do

 

[Pumpy]

Have we got any sources for the info? I can see how a group of 15 came unstuck with plod, but a blanket ban over the whole of France seems far fetched.

There are multiple regulations in France and Spain in the Alps and Pyrenees for protection of the national parks, we saw some signs in a national park in the Spanish Pyrenees regarding group sizes (max 4 in group) with 30k euro fines for breaking the rules.

There's some stuff on the Spanish Bikers site quoting similar rules for different regions too.
https://thespanishbiker.wordpress.com/survival/trail-and-off-road-regulations/

 

[Paddler Ed]

Turned out to be a load of rubbish and they had been caught by the police trying to wild camp in the middle of a big city and were quite rightly told to go to the camp site.

I had it the other day when I was working at the caravan park - a guy had parked an XLWB Mercedes Sprinter on the access road, and was planning to stay there for the night because he couldn't afford the park fees (or so he claimed - they would have been $24 for a site), and justified it as he'd "wild camped all round the NT and not had a problem". We did point out that he was wild camping on the edge of town, right outside a caravan park...

 

[Biscuit]

I don't know anything about a wider ban, but it's quite likely that larger groups would be restricted in most areas, particularly over summer. Depending on fire risk and conditions in a given area, there can be very specific restrictions in place and if they'd contravened any of these the punishment would likely be severe. Any dropping of cigarette butts out the window will get you in serious trouble immediately, at moderate fire risk you can't use machinery/camping stoves/bbq outdoors anywhere, and at the highest fire risk I'm not even allowed to off-road on my own land, let alone go nuts on someone else's. Communes/departments are also allowed to impose their own restrictions but the only way you'd know anything about that would be to visit the prefecture before you set off. And bear in mind if you're going on organised group trips that the French consider responsibility to be shared - if one of the group fucks up you're all in trouble.

http://www.prevention-incendie-foret.com/connaitre-les-regles/acces-en-foret - shows which areas are restricted and how to find out the current access conditions if you are planning an off road trip through forested areas.

 

[moggy1968]

As I understand it, off roading in France was effectively banned years ago except for organised events, the difference is that now they are enforcing it.

I don't have a direct reference but the information came from a reliable source.

Increasingly restrictions are coming in in places like Morocco, and more and more pistes are being tarmaced by the chinese. Don't assume that common sense will deter the lycra warriors! Tourism brings in dollars, off roaders, relatively speaking, don't.

I read about a group in the sahara that were visiting some cave paintings. Also there was the author of the article. When he challenged the group about the mess they were leaving, he was told 'why should we care, we aren't coming here again!' That will get us banned, disbelieve it at your peril.

 

[moggy1968]

Have we got any sources for the info? I can see how a group of 15 came unstuck with plod, but a blanket ban over the whole of France seems far fetched.

There are multiple regulations in France and Spain in the Alps and Pyrenees for protection of the national parks, we saw some signs in a national park in the Spanish Pyrenees regarding group sizes (max 4 in group) with 30k euro fines for breaking the rules.

There's some stuff on the Spanish Bikers site quoting similar rules for different regions too.
https://thespanishbiker.wordpress.com/survival/trail-and-off-road-regulations/

Thats interesting to read, I had heard the Spanish had started introducing controls, but it's good to see that they are trying to manage the problem rather than just banning people, although the 4m width thing is ridiculous! I do believe that all responsible users should be able to enjoy access, not just selfish ramblers.

 

[MarkW]

Overlanders and off road rally's are very lucrative for Morocco. There are a lot of auberges and camp sites that are only accessible by 4x4 down in the south. Events like the Carta Ralky, Morocco Desert Challenge bring in 100's of thousands of euros to the country. Then there are all the smaller rallies, roses de sables, gazelles, 205 raid, ax raid, Renault 5 raids etc

They only restrictions that have been brought in is a ban on motorsport in the Erg Chebbi area

 

[moggy1968]

Overlanders and off road rally's are very lucrative for Morocco. There are a lot of auberges and camp sites that are only accessible by 4x4 down in the south. Events like the Carta Ralky, Morocco Desert Challenge bring in 100's of thousands of euros to the country. Then there are all the smaller rallies, roses de sables, gazelles, 205 raid, ax raid, Renault 5 raids etc

They only restrictions that have been brought in is a ban on motorsport in the Erg Chebbi area

The OP wasn't about organised rallies, it was about recreational off road use (which some people use as an opportunity to think they can drive like they're on a rally). Rallies in the UK take place on tracks we aren't allowed on so the comparison is irrelevant, besides, these rallies tend to ship everything in, they don't produce much income for the country, especially compared to regular tourism. It was always one of the arguments against the paris dakar, and the camel trophy in other countries. Trying to justify off road driving on an economic basis is never going to stand up. The Government isn't interested in little desert Auberges, and 4x4 drivers who actually bring in relatively little money. They're interested in big hotels at the seaside, and rich Russians. There is a massive program of road building going on in Morocco so many of those Auberges and sites will soon be available to the thousands of motorhomers that flood the area every year anyway and we will see what we see on many European campsites where camping, 4x4s and things like roof tents aren't welcome.

The reality is that the lobby against these events and recreational 4x4 use is a powerful one, ignore it at your peril. Conventional tourism is worth masses more to the country than 4x4s coming in ripping up the countryside, but even if it weren't, the logic won't matter to the antis.
Witness the environmental damage done by the ski industry in the Alps compared to recreational 4x4s, but who is the environ-mental lobby up against? Same if you compare the environmental damage in the UK done by recreational 4x4s compared to the damage done by ramblers.

We can pretend the problem doesn't exist and the future will be all warm and fuzzy and 4x4 loving, but we may just regret that in a few years time