Something to ponder

G

Guest

Guest
I have just encountered a problem with my LC and thought it would be
interesting to relay the facts here to see what your diagnosis is.
I have just driven into the local town (8miles) and back. The car
hasn't been used for a few days and the fuel tank was pretty well empty
(the light was on) so I stopped off at the local garage (a mile away)
to put ?10 worth in.
I was thrashing it a bit because I was late for an appointment, but got
into town OK. In hindsight it seemed a little sluggish on the dual
carriageway, but just thought it was due to driving into a strong
headwind.
I got into town OK, parked up and went for my appointment. When I came
out half an hour later and tried to start the car, it had to turn over
for 30 seconds or so [it normally starts immediately - better than any
other vehicle I know) before eventually starting and then it was
running very roughly and noticeably down on power.
I made it back home, but it was feeling very rough and tickover was
right down to around 500rpm and then it died.
The fuel light was already on again and I ran some quick checks and
found quite a vacuum behind the fuel filler cap and pumped the primer
pump a few times to check there was fuel at the filter.
I tried starting it again and eventually got it going, but with my foot
flat to the floor it was struggling and the revs were going up and down
in a pulsing fashion, but never much more than around 2500rpm.
I checked the fuel cap again and again there was a vacuum behind it.
I then checked the primer pump and primed the whole system again [it
needed it] and tried to start it - after a bit of a cough it started
fine and ran smoothly for a few minutes until turned off.
I checked the fuel cap again and this time no suction.
And that is how I have left it.
A bit of a heart stopper!
I don't have the time to test anything today, but have a gut feel for
the what the problem is/was, but would be interested to hear your
theories!!
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
I have just encountered a problem with my LC and thought it would be
interesting to relay the facts here to see what your diagnosis is.
I have just driven into the local town (8miles) and back. The car
hasn't been used for a few days and the fuel tank was pretty well empty
(the light was on) so I stopped off at the local garage (a mile away)
to put ?10 worth in.
I was thrashing it a bit because I was late for an appointment, but got
into town OK. In hindsight it seemed a little sluggish on the dual
carriageway, but just thought it was due to driving into a strong
headwind.
I got into town OK, parked up and went for my appointment. When I came
out half an hour later and tried to start the car, it had to turn over
for 30 seconds or so [it normally starts immediately - better than any
other vehicle I know) before eventually starting and then it was
running very roughly and noticeably down on power.
I made it back home, but it was feeling very rough and tickover was
right down to around 500rpm and then it died.
The fuel light was already on again and I ran some quick checks and
found quite a vacuum behind the fuel filler cap and pumped the primer
pump a few times to check there was fuel at the filter.
I tried starting it again and eventually got it going, but with my foot
flat to the floor it was struggling and the revs were going up and down
in a pulsing fashion, but never much more than around 2500rpm.
I checked the fuel cap again and again there was a vacuum behind it.
I then checked the primer pump and primed the whole system again [it
needed it] and tried to start it - after a bit of a cough it started
fine and ran smoothly for a few minutes until turned off.
I checked the fuel cap again and this time no suction.
And that is how I have left it.
A bit of a heart stopper!
I don't have the time to test anything today, but have a gut feel for
the what the problem is/was, but would be interested to hear your
theories!!
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Doesn't sound very good, Julian :(
I find this whole tank venting business bizarre.
Like everyone else I get a small vacuum behind the filler cap if I pull in to a pump directly from driving, but it is never excessive. And if I leave it for a bit before unscrewing there is no discernible vacuum.
I've just taken off my filler cap and sucked through it (tastes delightful!), and the centre spring-loaded vent allows air in very easily. So, curious to see how it works, I took it apart and, sure enough, there is a spring loaded central plunger that allows air in from the outer centre section, through a fine nylon filter that is inside the top of the cap.
This assembly must limit the negative pressure in the tank to something pretty minimal, unless of course the filter is blocked. On mine the rev drop at idle when you face up a steep hill is quite significant, and the loss of pressure head there can't be more than about 6 feet (ie increase the height the fuel has to be sucked by 6 feet). I don't know what head 1 atmosphere is in fuel, but in water it is 32 feet, so it must be at least 40 feet of diesel given its lower density; therefore roughly 1/7 of an atmosphere, or 2psi, of static head loss gives a noticeable effect, suggesting that the suction in my tank must be a lot less than that.
That has to be test #1 Julian: undo the filler cap and suck through its centre. If there is anything more than slight resistance the plunger is stuck or the filter is clogged.
If that is OK then I think the -ve pressure in the tank is a red herring. I would look for a leak in the fuel line that is drawing in air or, and I've had this before, a leaking seal at the top of the fuel filter likewise sucking in air.
Christopher Bell
Devon, UK
1996 1HD-FT
| -----Original Message-----
| From: [Email address removed]
| [mailto:[Email address removed]]On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
| Sent: 11 March 2005 14:38
| To: [Email address removed]
| Subject: [ELCO] Something to ponder
|
|
| I have just encountered a problem with my LC and thought it would be
| interesting to relay the facts here to see what your diagnosis is.
|
| I have just driven into the local town (8miles) and back. The car
| hasn't been used for a few days and the fuel tank was pretty
| well empty
| (the light was on) so I stopped off at the local garage (a mile away)
| to put =A310 worth in.
|
| I was thrashing it a bit because I was late for an
| appointment, but got
| into town OK. In hindsight it seemed a little sluggish on the dual
| carriageway, but just thought it was due to driving into a strong
| headwind.
|
| I got into town OK, parked up and went for my appointment.
| When I came
| out half an hour later and tried to start the car, it had to
| turn over
| for 30 seconds or so [it normally starts immediately - better
| than any
| other vehicle I know) before eventually starting and then it was
| running very roughly and noticeably down on power.
|
| I made it back home, but it was feeling very rough and tickover was
| right down to around 500rpm and then it died.
|
| The fuel light was already on again and I ran some quick checks and
| found quite a vacuum behind the fuel filler cap and pumped the primer
| pump a few times to check there was fuel at the filter.
|
| I tried starting it again and eventually got it going, but
| with my foot
| flat to the floor it was struggling and the revs were going
| up and down
| in a pulsing fashion, but never much more than around 2500rpm.
|
| I checked the fuel cap again and again there was a vacuum behind it.
|
| I then checked the primer pump and primed the whole system again [it
| needed it] and tried to start it - after a bit of a cough it started
| fine and ran smoothly for a few minutes until turned off.
|
| I checked the fuel cap again and this time no suction.
|
| And that is how I have left it.
|
| A bit of a heart stopper!
|
| I don't have the time to test anything today, but have a gut feel for
| the what the problem is/was, but would be interested to hear your
| theories!!
|
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian,
Did you play with the tank breather pipe lately?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:38:26 GMT, Julian Voelcker
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Julian,
I believe that you where investigating the tank breathers a little while ago
could it be some thing to do with that? I have had a similar problem many
years ago on a Ducati motorcycle when the filer cap vent hole became
blocked. You could just try a short run with the cap off and see how it
runs then.
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 11 March 2005 14:38
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] Something to ponder
I have just encountered a problem with my LC and thought it would be
interesting to relay the facts here to see what your diagnosis is.
I have just driven into the local town (8miles) and back. The car
hasn't been used for a few days and the fuel tank was pretty well empty
(the light was on) so I stopped off at the local garage (a mile away)
to put =A310 worth in.
I was thrashing it a bit because I was late for an appointment, but got
into town OK. In hindsight it seemed a little sluggish on the dual
carriageway, but just thought it was due to driving into a strong
headwind.
I got into town OK, parked up and went for my appointment. When I came
out half an hour later and tried to start the car, it had to turn over
for 30 seconds or so [it normally starts immediately - better than any
other vehicle I know) before eventually starting and then it was
running very roughly and noticeably down on power.
I made it back home, but it was feeling very rough and tickover was
right down to around 500rpm and then it died.
The fuel light was already on again and I ran some quick checks and
found quite a vacuum behind the fuel filler cap and pumped the primer
pump a few times to check there was fuel at the filter.
I tried starting it again and eventually got it going, but with my foot
flat to the floor it was struggling and the revs were going up and down
in a pulsing fashion, but never much more than around 2500rpm.
I checked the fuel cap again and again there was a vacuum behind it.
I then checked the primer pump and primed the whole system again [it
needed it] and tried to start it - after a bit of a cough it started
fine and ran smoothly for a few minutes until turned off.
I checked the fuel cap again and this time no suction.
And that is how I have left it.
A bit of a heart stopper!
I don't have the time to test anything today, but have a gut feel for
the what the problem is/was, but would be interested to hear your
theories!!
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian, one would obviously think fuel tank vent but obviously more to
it than that or you wouldn't have asked - come on what was it?
Ian.
Julian Voelcker wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Roman,
I did some preliminary checks the other day - I have the pipe and
replacement filter here waiting to go on to replace it.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi All,
I am actually quite puzzled now - just taken it for a quick spin and
still very sluggish.
There is still some vacuum behind the filler cap so obviously there is a
problem with a blocked breather
[Chris, never really considered the breather in the cap - obviously that
needs checking as well - odd that they have both]
My initial guess was that the fuel was so low in the tank that I had
pretty well ran out by the time I got to the garage leading to air
getting into the system which is why I needed to prime it properly to get
it running more smoothly.
With the filler cap off, it is still isn't running very smoothly so my
next thought is that with the tank so low some crap has got up into the
filter so I will swap the filter over tomorrow to see if that makes a
difference.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi All,
I am actually quite puzzled now - just taken it for a quick spin and
still very sluggish.
There is still some vacuum behind the filler cap so obviously there is a
problem with a blocked breather
[Chris, never really considered the breather in the cap - obviously that
needs checking as well - odd that they have both]
My initial guess was that the fuel was so low in the tank that I had
pretty well ran out by the time I got to the garage leading to air
getting into the system which is why I needed to prime it properly to get
it running more smoothly.
With the filler cap off, it is still isn't running very smoothly so my
next thought is that with the tank so low some crap has got up into the
filter so I will swap the filter over tomorrow to see if that makes a
difference.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Roman,
I did some preliminary checks the other day - I have the pipe and
replacement filter here waiting to go on to replace it.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
I have nothing to offer that hasn't already been mentioned. In the past, low
fuel, really low, has caused similar power probs for me, (not in my current
TLC) what with air and all sorts of crud finding its way towards filters
etc. Is it worth thinking about the other side of the combustion coin, air
filter etc? Bearing in mind the history you give, seems unlikely but you
never know. Start simple and work up to the terrifying, expensive and the
unknown. As you know more than most about these machines, we all await your
findings...
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
07831 458 793
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian,
just be carefull that your in pump fuel filter is not blocking
the same as mine did.
Clive.
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:25:03 +0000, Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Could it be muck in the fuel pump from the low tank? Try disconnecting the pipe that goes into the fuel lift pump, then blow down it and see if that helps. i.e. blowing the fuel back into the tank from the engine, it'll get rid of any blockages there.
I've come across this problem with Landies.
The Toyota diesel engine is pretty much self bleeding so air in the system will go in a few seconds.
I'd go for muck in the fuel line somewhere.
All the best,
Matt Savage
Derbyshire, UK
1991 HDJ80
1950 Landy
other stuff....
----- Original Message -----
From: Julian Voelcker
To: [Email address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:38 PM
Subject: [ELCO] Something to ponder
I have just encountered a problem with my LC and thought it would be
interesting to relay the facts here to see what your diagnosis is.
I have just driven into the local town (8miles) and back. The car
hasn't been used for a few days and the fuel tank was pretty well empty
(the light was on) so I stopped off at the local garage (a mile away)
to put =A310 worth in.
I was thrashing it a bit because I was late for an appointment, but got
into town OK. In hindsight it seemed a little sluggish on the dual
carriageway, but just thought it was due to driving into a strong
headwind.
I got into town OK, parked up and went for my appointment. When I came
out half an hour later and tried to start the car, it had to turn over for 30 seconds or so [it normally starts immediately - better than any other vehicle I know) before eventually starting and then it was
running very roughly and noticeably down on power.
I made it back home, but it was feeling very rough and tickover was
right down to around 500rpm and then it died.
The fuel light was already on again and I ran some quick checks and
found quite a vacuum behind the fuel filler cap and pumped the primer
pump a few times to check there was fuel at the filter.
I tried starting it again and eventually got it going, but with my foot
flat to the floor it was struggling and the revs were going up and down
in a pulsing fashion, but never much more than around 2500rpm.
I checked the fuel cap again and again there was a vacuum behind it.
I then checked the primer pump and primed the whole system again [it
needed it] and tried to start it - after a bit of a cough it started
fine and ran smoothly for a few minutes until turned off.
I checked the fuel cap again and this time no suction.
And that is how I have left it.
A bit of a heart stopper!
I don't have the time to test anything today, but have a gut feel for
the what the problem is/was, but would be interested to hear your
theories!!
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
--
European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Jeremy,
Not in this situation - the problems are on the fuel side and have only been
evident today.
The filters were all changed a couple of months ago anyway because I am
slowly working through a very poor fuel consumption problem. I suspect it is
injectors related so am planning on getting them serviced in the next few
weeks.
I am hoping it is that and will swap the filter in the morning.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Jeremy,
Not in this situation - the problems are on the fuel side and have only been
evident today.
The filters were all changed a couple of months ago anyway because I am
slowly working through a very poor fuel consumption problem. I suspect it is
injectors related so am planning on getting them serviced in the next few
weeks.
I am hoping it is that and will swap the filter in the morning.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
What mpg do you get?
Matt (Derbyshire, UK)
1991 HDJ80
----- Original Message -----
From: Julian Voelcker
To: [Email address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Something to ponder
Hi Jeremy,
> Is it worth thinking about the other side of the combustion coin, air
> filter etc?
Not in this situation - the problems are on the fuel side and have only been
evident today.
The filters were all changed a couple of months ago anyway because I am
slowly working through a very poor fuel consumption problem. I suspect it is
injectors related so am planning on getting them serviced in the next few
weeks.
> In the past, low
> fuel, really low, has caused similar power probs for me, (not in my current
> TLC) what with air and all sorts of crud finding its way towards filters
> etc.
I am hoping it is that and will swap the filter in the morning.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
--
European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Clive,
Thanks Clive, on the list for the morning.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Clive,
Thanks Clive, on the list for the morning.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Matt,
Not likely, the pump is part of the injector pump (as opposed to being
in the tank) and the fact that I am getting a vacuum in the tank and
that it does now run indicates that fuel is flowing.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Matt,
Not likely, the pump is part of the injector pump (as opposed to being
in the tank) and the fact that I am getting a vacuum in the tank and
that it does now run indicates that fuel is flowing.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
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