Tranny Sump Plug?

[stuzbot]

Sigh! --I thought things were going bit too well, having got a full week's worth of use out of the wagon, since my adventures with the LSV.

Today, I thought I'd treat the old girl to a first flush of the tranny, seeing as the oil is pretty murky looking. So out with my basin and off I went. As I undid the tranny sump plug, it would be so loose one minute, I could turn it with my fingers and then tight the next, so I had to get a socket on it. Classic signs that whoever put it back in last had cross-threaded it.

Anyway, I got it out and drained the tranny...

Chocolatey goodness! --Oh well, I s'pose it's better than milkshake!

...and had a look at the sump plug. The threads actually looked OK. So [isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!] eejit that I am, I put a new washer on it and tightened it back in. Well, you can guess the rest: it tightened a certain amount and then suddenly let go and was spinning freely. Took it back out and the unthreaded section at the top had snapped off. Luckily it didn't wedge in the drain hole, but is presumably loose in the bottom of the tranny sump. So, a couple of questions for anyone who's "been there, done that"

1: Is the tranny sump plug the same size as the engine oil one? Roughtrax only have one, listed as being for the engine. But it's the same socket size as the tranny one. So are they interchageable?

2: Given the unthreaded end of the sump plug is [presumably] now loose inside the sump, should I get the sump off and get it out, or could I get away with leaving it til I'm ready to change the tranny filter? [was planning to do this after I've done a few fluid flushes]. As I understand it, the filter should stop any chance of that we bit of the end of the sump plug getting into the tranny itself, shouldn't it?

3: How the hell do you guys get an accurate reading on the tranny dipstick? I've wiped it and re-read it a zillion times and, every time, the fluid is all over the show. Way above the MAX level in the hot section. I can't believe the tranny can be that over-filled and it seems to drive fine [bearing in mind this is the 1st auto I've had, so nothing to compare it to].

Photo's out of focus as my phone kept focussing on the cloth. But blue line is an example of the kind of the level I keep getting, with tranny cold. And the two red arrows are the HOT zone on the dipstick

For what it's worth, when I drained the tranny [cold] I got 4 1/4 litres out. Does that sound about right, or does that sound stupidly over-filled?

 

[MODVRS]

Can't help with the sump plug, but I've drained my ATF twice and got five litres out both times, the book says expect two litres. 4.25 litres sounds about right to me.

Checking the fluid is a pain, especially when it is fresh and almost transparent on the dipstick. The routine is to get the fluid hot, shift the gear lever through a few cycles and dip while the engine is running (in park or neutral with the handbrake on).

 

[stuzbot]

Checking the fluid is a pain, especially when it is fresh and almost transparent on the dipstick

Mine's old and chocolatey and I still can't get a decent reading. The stick is always wet right the way up, like it's picking up fluid from the side of the tube or something. Odd how difficult it is compared to getting a reading of an oil dipstick.

BTW --further to my previous about losing the 'unthreaded end' of the sump plug: I'm now wondering whether someone had actually stuck a magnet on the end of it [or used an after-market plug with a magnet] and this is what has come off? Because, when I looked at the plug after it had really knackered itself, the end where the broken off bit would have been was completely smooth. Not like it had sheared off at all and [apart from the fancy purple colour and drilled end] this magnetic sump plug from Roughtrax looks the same in shape as mine was when I took it out originally...

...whereas, after it 'broke' and cross-threaded itself to oblivion, it looked like the standard shape of their oil sump plug...

If that's the case, it's good news as, having a magnet end snap off inside the tranny sump is nothing to worry about as it'll just stick to the nearest bit of metal and not be rattling around in there., posing a threat to anything.

So, if the gods are smiling on me for once [and the oil pan sump plug is the same size as the tranny one] I might just get away with this one, for the price of a new plug. Of course, knowing my luck, the threads on the tranny sump itself will be chewed up too and I'll have to fork out for a new one of those.

Fingers crossed!

 

[Lancashire Cruiser]

I have to say I enjoy reading your posts. The trials and tribulations of a Land Cruiser owner, perhaps you should write a book ;-)

 

[stuzbot]

...perhaps you should write a book ;-)

One for the 'Horror' section, perhaps.

I'm minded to order a cheapo* 14mm Toyota sump plug off eBay, on the [hopefully not too naive] assumption that, for supply & logistical reasons, they'd have used the same size plug for both sumps... unless someone happens to know otherwise?


*The term being relative. Seems you can't find a sump plug for less than a fiver --even from the Johnny No-Brand sellers.

 

[AdventureWagon]

Tbh 4.5l sounds massively overfilled. Mine was like that last time I drained and filled mine - tight then loose but it accepted torque so I haven't touched it since!!

I just put 2.5l in mine since then as like you I can never get a reliable repeatable reading from the dipstick.

Especially if you are doing a lot of work with out or towing then you absolutely don't want to overfill it.

 

[stuzbot]

I'm suspecting it was over-filled, or I'm a complete and utter spanner at trying to read the dipstick [Hey! --no snidey comments from the cheaper seats there!].

Unfortunately, as I've never owned an auto motor before, I've no idea of what symptoms [if any] and over-filled box would give. As I said, it seems to drive OK, to me. But I've nothing to compare it to. I suppose I could stick a couple of litres in to start with and see if I get any warning lights or it drives worse than before and [if so] add a bit more.

It wouldn't surprise me if previous owner had known the drain plug was cross-threaded and had just kept topping up the tranny, instead of draining it.

 

[BobMurphy]

Stuzbot - Is that black mess supposed to be ATF (Raspberry Juice) from your autobox ?? If so, it doesn't look good.

Does it smell burnt ?? If yes that's even worse .

My '90' is a manual, but I have an Auto '100' - the ATF is always clear & red when I drain it, I do that about once per year. This is despite doing some heavy towing (2.5 ton horse trailer, 3.5 ton plant trailer with a digger on it, drop-side trailer with a couple of tons of gravel etc. Yup, five trailers ).

You say you are going to flush it - I'll be interested to see how it looks after a couple of flushes and some use (you won't drain the box completely through the drain plug - it takes a couple of flushes).

The level has to be checked with the engine running and everything hot - otherwise the ATF drains back from the cooler at the bottom of the radiator and gives you a high reading. You may need to consider a new radiator if the ATF continues to appear contaminated.

Getting a 'clean' reading on the dipstick can be difficult, but it is possible with patience.

Now . . About that bit in the Autobox sump . . . you know as well as I do that if you don't drop the sump and remove it (and check the drainplug threads and sump filter while its off) it will haunt you, won't it ! .

Bob.

 

[Beastrider]

Although the books all say 2 litres for a drain-and-fill, many people report getting 4+ litres out - me included.
I found it tricky to get a reading on the dipstick too but it is possible. Engine and transmission needs to be running and hot. You need to cycle through the gears a couple of times, pausing for a few seconds in each position.

 

[stuzbot]

Stuzbot - Is that black mess supposed to be ATF (Raspberry Juice) from your autobox ?? If so, it doesn't look good...

Yeah. That's what came out. It probably looks worse [blacker] in the photo than it actually is because it's in a deep tub. It's a kind of dirty yellow-brown colour, but it's pretty clear and it smells of oil, not burnt toast. So I'm hoping I've got it in time.

The level has to be checked with the engine running and everything hot - otherwise the ATF drains back from the cooler at the bottom of the radiator and gives you a high reading. You may need to consider a new radiator if the ATF continues to appear contaminated.

Ah. So that's why they say to check the level with the engine running. Thanks. I'll try that next time then.

As I said before, I already have a new radiator and transmission filter waiting to go in. But I wanted to run a few flushes through the tranny and likewise with the coolant before fitting them, so I can get as much of the crud out as possible before I do. Otherwise I'll just be filing shiny new parts with old sludge.

Now . . About that bit in the Autobox sump . . . you know as well as I do that if you don't drop the sump and remove it (and check the drainplug threads and sump filter while its off) it will haunt you, won't it !

Oh, I know. But see previous answer. I'm going to give it a good "sump off & new filter" clear out in the near future. But, for now, I just want to flush it a couple of times.

 

[stuzbot]

Oh. I almost forgot:

In one of those weird quirks of fate that life likes to throw at us from time to time; I was perusing eBay before, on the off-chance someone had a tranny sump plug listed and grumbling to myself about the fact it was going to cost about a fiver for a single bloody plug, when I came across this...

Some guy selling a box full of miscellaneous sump plugs [at least one of which I can see has a 14mm head]. So how could I resist?

35 quid for a whole box full of sump plugs of various sizes. Just think of the fun I can have tearing all those packets open... to find none of them fit!

 

[AndyCook]

When I first changed ATF on my Colorado I too found sump threads had been damaged when I torqued sump plug with torque wrench, it was only 30-35nm I think
I ended up fitting a new sump I got from Toyota via Simon Holton.

 

[stuzbot]

Thanks. I'm pretty much resigned to the threads on the sump itself being knackered too. Such is the abusive relationship between myself and Lady Luck.

Can you remember what the structure of the sump internals were round the plug area? I'm wondering if it might be possible to tap out the thread to a different size.... seeing as per my previous post, I'm expecting to have a range to choose from soon. Another option might be to drill out the old threads and weld in a captive nut on the inside [if the pan itself isn't too thin to take a weld. But all options depend on what the setup is on the inside.

 

[Lancashire Cruiser]

Would it not be possible to helicoil the sump plug hole?

 

[stuzbot]

That's another option. All depends on what the setup is where the plug screws in. If it's a solid thickness of metal, it should be possible to re-thread it, bore it out, or helicoil it. If it's just the thickness of the sump kind of punched inwards with a thread cut into it, things will be more tricky.

The annoying thing is that, in all my various pots, jam-jars, lunchboxes full of old nuts and bolts, I've not been able to find a single one that is the same width as the old sump plug. So I've not even been able to confirm whether or not the threads in the sump itself are knackered or not. There's a slim chance they might be OK and just the plug got chewed up.

Might be time for another hoke round my "Things That Might Come in Handy" cupboard. Surely I've got something with the right sized thread I can use to test!

 

[fbnss]

You could change your engine oil while it's not going anywhere and test out a couple of theories?

 

[stuzbot]

Unfortunately, I did the engine oil and filter a week or two ago. So don't really want to empty that out again. Still, it's a thought. I may resort to that if the expedition to the north face of the 'Things That Might Come in Handy' cupboard doesn't come up with anything.

 

[BobMurphy]

I haven't had the sump off my '90' (yet) but I did have to change the sump on my '100'.

Naturally, I don't have a clear picture of the inside of the drain hole - but if you zoom-in on this you can see that there is quite a lot of metal in the fitting.

Hopefully the '90' sump will have the same structure.

This sump had three rust holes .

Bob.

 

[stuzbot]

Cheers.

Funnily enough, I've just been out for a look to try and see what the score is with the threads in the sump. Not easy to get a photo of it by torchlight. But it does look like the same kind of structure as what I can make out from yours in the photo. The threaded part looks to be on a separate brass coloured insert which is kind of clamped by the folded in metal of the body of the sump pan:

Fingers crossed, those threads don't look too mashed up to me

Although that brass colouring could be worn off the old sump plug, which I retrieved for inspection:

These threads, on the other hand!...

I think we can tentatively agree there's just a wee hint of cross-threading about that one.

I think my hunch that the old plug was in two parts; either having a magnet built on the end or having had one glued on there is correct as where that end bit snapped off and ended up inside the sump is completely flat and smooth. So nothing has actually sheared off here. And is that a hint of a smear of glue I see on the surface?

And just to complete the walkaround [and you thought my dissection of the old LSV was a nerd-step too far!], here's the top of the plug. Just for future reference...

Oh, and to the couple of people who said they got 4,5 litres out of the sump after draining, in comparison with my measley 4,25... I've just obtained the missing 250ml, when I undid the stump of the plug, after leaving the motor overnight.

If anybody needs me, I'll be wringing transmission fluid out of the sleeve of my overalls.

 

[BobMurphy]

From the outside - the sump plug fittings do look similar:

Hopefully the thread in yours is OK - 'cos that plug is knackered !

Bob.
(must get back to work on the cars !)