Whine (the car, not me). Do I need new wheel bearings?

[diggerdave]

I hadn't really noticed it because I'm used to the mud tyre noise, but now it's been pointed out by others I think that the car is more whiney than usual. (It's variable with speed and doesn't change if you drop the clutch and freewheel.) I think it might just be the tyres getting older but I've got myself worried...

Wheel bearings are an obvious suspect. I jacked the car up and tried to feel play in the (front) bearings at 3-9 and 12-6 but there is none. It recently passed an MOT, so my garage agree (and they would have told me if they thought there was a problem even if they passed it)

Would the wheel bearings whine before showing any play? Are there any other tests to do?

I'm obviously a bit unwilling to just go replacing bits, especially a medium-cost job like wheel bearings that I can't really tackle myself

 

[Towpack]

The symptoms I've had in the past from worn/pitted wheel bearings has always been more of a low rumble rather than a whine like you might get from a diff or gearbox. I had a slight speed related whine, I thought from the rear end, which disappeared completely with new tyres, BFG AT's instead of the Runway Enduro AT's. No idea why. If it was transmission related I'd expect the noise to change between freewheeling and under power so the fact it doesn't does point to wheels IMO.

 

[Chris]

If you off road it then I'm afraid yes you will most likely get pitted noisy bearings that don't show play. Jacked up, there is no load on the bearing and spinning the wheel probably won't give you much noise. Use a wooden dowel on the hub, spin the wheel and put the dowel to your ear like a stethoscope. You might pick up some grinding noise that way.

 

[diggerdave]

Thanks for the replies guys. The noise is definitely a whine rather than a rumbly drone. I hope you're right about it not being a diff or gearbox, Towpack - that was kinda my reasoning as well that it would change according to whether the box/diff was under load or not. Chris, I'll try the stethescope approach.

 

[Shayne]

When was the last time you had tracking done by a pro ?

 

[diggerdave]

When was the last time you had tracking done by a pro ?

Professionally, some time ago (caster, camber, toe) - more than a couple of years

I evened up the tracking (toe angle) myself to correct an off-centre steering wheel after my garage let the work experience kid change my steering rack bushes

I had to have a new steering rack fitted about 6 mos ago, and I assume the work experience kid was away that week as the steering wheel was in the right place. I'm guessing they'll have reset the toe angle (if only by counting turns)

I recently had a good look at the tyres and though they're are a bit worn there's no uneven wear to be seen

 

[Dave2000]

Get the vehicle up to a speed where you can hear the noise. Select neutral and ease the steering to the left and then to the right, just as if you were following a gently winding road. If the noise does not change it is unlikely to be a wheel bearing. If the noise increases when turn left the the right bearing has an issue and vice verse for the other side.

Noise increase both ways normally indicates both bearings at fault, rare for both to fail at the same time, been in deep water recently?

Regards
Dave

 

[diggerdave]

Get the vehicle up to a speed where you can hear the noise. Select neutral and ease the steering to the left and then to the right, just as if you were following a gently winding road. If the noise does not change it is unlikely to be a wheel bearing. If the noise increases when turn left the the right bearing has an issue and vice verse for the other side.

Noise increase both ways normally indicates both bearings at fault, rare for both to fail at the same time, been in deep water recently?

Regards
Dave

I'll give it a try Dave. Deep(ish) water? - last Xmas laning trip:

 

[Dave2000]

The water rarely gets in to the bearings but, if the seal at the rear of the disc is worn or the gasket at the drive flange is not good then water can get in. I also put a smear of silicone sealer on the front cap that covers the CV joint.
Any weakness there and water gets in.

Regards

Dave

 

[diggerdave]

I've spoken to my garage who reckon it's not a wheel bearing noise or a CV joint noise (I've reason to doubt the driver's side inner CV). They suggest front diff (front, because if I had to guess I would say the noise is from the front)

I've removed the front prop, but there was no change. My question: Does this mean I can rule out a problem with the front diff? I know the diff still works when it's not being 'driven' but I would at least expect the nature of the noise to change without the prop attached.

Swapping wheels round and the 'stethescope' test for the wheel bearing are the next step I've also booked it into the garage next week to get it up on their ramp and see if they can find anything

 

[Shayne]

I don't think disconnecting the prop is a fair test of the diff because if it's bearing whine load would make no odds , its still spinning just as fast .

I think Chris said you can run with disconnected the cv's on Marks recent diff problem thread ?

I was very surprised how easy it is to remove a cv shaft when i finally decided to have a go at it .

 

[diggerdave]

I was very surprised how easy it is to remove a cv shaft when i finally decided to have a go at it

I'm pleased to hear that as it's on my to-do list

 

[MarkW]

Based on my experience with diffs if you disconnect the prop and the noise goes it's the diff if it doesn't it not. But that only accounts for noises produced under load.

My work diff only made a noise under load so if you depressed the clutch, lifted of throttle or disconected the prop the noise went.

 

[diggerdave]

Well, I'm giving up and handing it over to my garage to have an investigate up on their ramps. The problem with being a DIYer is that it's all very well IF you can diagnose a fault... I swapped the tyres front to back and I don't think there's much difference. So my money's on wheel bearings but it might still be the tyres being worn

 

[diggerdave]

My garage says... tyres most likely. With an outside chance it might be early stages of wear in the wheel bearings. (So pretty much what I thought in the first place )

As well as a road test they ran it up on a lift and could detect no noise from any components with it hoisted up

 

[Shayne]

What tyres do you have , i read somewhere early this morning about a tyre that is prone to making a noise when its a little worn but i can't remember the brand ?

 

[diggerdave]

They're Insa Turbo Traction Tracks Shayne. I'm pretty pleased with them overall. They've never been silent but they don't half sing now they're a couple of years old

 

[Shayne]

If you max out the pressure it should eliminate either the tyres from the list of possibilities or the song itself .

 

[diggerdave]

Tried it already but I couldn't really tell any difference between 36psi and 26psi (or swapping tyres front to back). That's one of the reasons I got concerned that there might be something more sinister

My garage says that (and I understand their logic) if the wheel bearings were worn enough to produce the noise and a certain degree of vibration that goes with it then they would expect to be able to hear something even on a lift when the load is off the wheels, or to feel even a tiny bit of play, but the bearings are silent and rock solid

It gives me the opportunity to look at tyre-porn although mine are less than half worn and I can't really justify the cost

 

[Shayne]

Just remembered you also have a bit of drivetrain shunt , i am currently replacing control arm bushes and i have a sneaky suspicion the wishbone bushes are the cause of my shunt .

The same problem might make wheel alignment pointless because it's done with the truck grounded .

5 garages have had this car and none have pointed a finger at control arms . Might be a week before they are back in so no conclusion yet .