Almost bursting into flames

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Guest

Guest
Hi All,
I had rather an exciting afternoon today, I turned the ignition switch off
but the starter motor remained engaged and kept the engine turning.
As I was away from home and had to get back I decided to drive even though
the starter motor was engaged, on my way back I tried switching off again
to find that the starter motor had released itself, but once inside my
garage when I turned off it was engaged again, and when I left the switch
off clouds of smoke started coming from under the bonnet, reaching first for
the fire extinguisher, I was able to disconnect the battery before
everything burst into flames.
The good news is that I phoned Milner from whence the starter motor came and
discovered it was still under guarantee, another one is arriving in the
morning and when I call them back to say the dodgy one has been removed they
will send a courier to pick it up, there's service for you.
Shame though, that tomorrow I was going to
http://www.westmid4x4.com/sliders.htm to get a set of their sliders, oh well
another day
TTFN
Chas
 
G

Guest

Guest
Chas (and unhappy hippo)
This happened to me in 2003 - I remember it well, by the time I was able to
switch the ignition fully off I had rather a nice smouldering fire under my
bonnet - too late to stop it as it burnt out all my electric relays and
fuses/boxes/links - affected everything, solenoid, electrics (all of them),
starter motor, the lot.
I won't tell you how much it cost me but it was sure a helluva lot more than
the cost of a starter motor and solenoid...
Just as well you were able to avoid a major incidence - I was unlucky with
mine, and actually couldn't do anything about it - fire engine had to come
out to mine.
Methinks, it might be a rare occurence but I'm not alone and that gives me
strange comfort.
All the best for its recovery
Regards
Renate
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed]
[mailto:[Email address removed]]On Behalf Of Chas
Sent: 14 June 2007 17:21
To: ELCO
Subject: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Hi All,
I had rather an exciting afternoon today, I turned the ignition switch off
but the starter motor remained engaged and kept the engine turning.
As I was away from home and had to get back I decided to drive even though
the starter motor was engaged, on my way back I tried switching off again
to find that the starter motor had released itself, but once inside my
garage when I turned off it was engaged again, and when I left the switch
off clouds of smoke started coming from under the bonnet, reaching first for
the fire extinguisher, I was able to disconnect the battery before
everything burst into flames.
The good news is that I phoned Milner from whence the starter motor came and
discovered it was still under guarantee, another one is arriving in the
morning and when I call them back to say the dodgy one has been removed they
will send a courier to pick it up, there's service for you.
Shame though, that tomorrow I was going to
http://www.westmid4x4.com/sliders.htm to get a set of their sliders, oh well
another day
TTFN
Chas
 
G

Guest

Guest
This happened to mine a few months ago and was a topic on here. It is
a known fault and a re-build of the motor after a time will prevent
it. I was fortunate in being close to a spanner and had the batteries
disconnected fast enough to prevent damage.
Regards,
Clive Marks
Home: +44 1293 514600
Mobile: +44 7821 491897
Skype: Cobminor
Crawley, West Sussex, UK.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Same with me, my toolbox was right in front of the Cruiser
TTFN
Chas
London UK 1HDT 80, Safari snorkel, Custom Winch bumper and Rear bumper with
spare wheel carrier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clive Marks" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
I was fortunate in being close to a spanner and had the batteries
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Makes an battery isolator look like a good idea.
Never had the problem on a car but have had it happen on a big old Dorman
diesel generator, V12 with about 800HP, clouds of smoke streaming down the
engine in the airflow, sort of scary before I saw it was the starter as I
thought it was the alternator about to come apart on me.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Chas
Sent: 14 June 2007 17:21
To: ELCO
Subject: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Hi All,
I had rather an exciting afternoon today, I turned the ignition switch off
but the starter motor remained engaged and kept the engine turning.
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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13:39
 
G

Guest

Guest
Chas

You were lucky there!

Any particular reason you didn't get the old one re-built as opposed to buying a new one?

Has anyone else out there had any problems with the new milners ones

Niall
 
G

Guest

Guest
I've had the same too. Fortunately I heard the whirring noise when I started the engine, so it only ran on for about a minute or so.
Strip and rebuild cost about =A380. However had it wrecked the teeth on the flywheel that would have been a different story ....
Christopher Bell
Chas
=A0
You were lucky there!
=A0
Any particular reason you didn't get the old one re-built as opposed to buying a new one?
=A0
Has anyone else out there had any problems with the new milners ones
=A0
Niall
____________________________________________________________
Electronic mail messages entering and leaving Arup business
systems are scanned for acceptability of content and viruses
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Niall,
Last October when I replaced the starter motor I didn't know then that they
could be re-built, and as they were ?175 from Milner as opposed to ?258 (I
think it was) from Toy I got a new one, which having now completely burnt
out is possibly beyond repair, any way Milners are sending me a replacement,
I am sitting here waiting for it to arrive as I type.
TTFN
Chas
London UK 1HDT 80 Safari snorkel, Custom Winch bumper and Rear bumper with
spare wheel carrier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Sommers" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Chas
You were lucky there!
Any particular reason you didn't get the old one re-built as opposed to
buying a new one?
Has anyone else out there had any problems with the new milners ones
Niall
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi all,
Just wondering, were the starter motors going up in flames as
described above OEM parts, pattern parts or both?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Chas <[Email address removed]> wrote:
ey
58 (I
nt,
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Roman,
My starter that almost went up in flames was a Milner, only 9 months old,
but it had been dipped in mud a few times.
TTFN
Chas
London UK '94 1HDT 80 Auto, Safari snorkel, Custom Winch bumper and Rear
bumper with spare wheel carrier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Hi all,
Just wondering, were the starter motors going up in flames as
described above OEM parts, pattern parts or both?
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
 
G

Guest

Guest
The best solution is to fit a battery isolation switch (or switches) inside
the cab so if there is any problem like this, or in a crash then all
electrical power can be cut off immediately.
Like these:
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.co.uk/VWPweb2000/battisol/battisol.html
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Benoit Bernard
Sent: 15 June 2007 12:44
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re : [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Hello the guys I am confused about all this posts. But if I read write then
a originale Toyota starter Chas bought he only some month ago for =A3258, then
it stucks on in the ON mode turning on the moteur again and again even
though she is already firing! Then the starter catch on fire almost. But
then another post he say that starter is from Milners- what is Milners, a
Toyota concessionaire?
These whole ideas is new to me even but I have some friends with hdg80 and
my friend with his own garage know very many things about them to. Nobody
hear of this starter things before I read this.
Please some body with good english like you guys could make a simple rapport
on what probleme is and what driver should do so fast so no fire comes.
Assurance companies here in France are like rodents(?) which mean they crawl
like worms to finding all little excuse to not pay back a accident even like
moteur fires. I rather not have fire in first space. With hdj80 have 2
batteries we must unconnect the two to save from fire? So many questions.
Benoit
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hello,
If you consider fitting the islolator(s) operated manually under the
bonnet, please mind that in case of fire you must act very quickly to
get to each isolator before the fire spreads. Opening the bonnet under
such circumstances may be difficult (e.g. fire damage to the bonnet
catch/cable) if not plain dangerous. So, ideally, the isolator(s)
should be operated remotely from outside the engine bay.
I would not recommend an installation using two separate isolators in
the cab because power cable runs required are pretty long and the
added resistance is significant.
Cheap isolators costing a few quid are just that - cheap. Their
contacts quickly get dirty, add resistance in the starter circuit and
eventually fail within the space of one - two years.
The "remotely switched battery isolator" from Durite (as sold by
Vehicle Wiring Products) has two advantages - it can be operated from
inside the cab and it is dual pole so it disconnects both batteries in
one go. I've had one for several years and can confirm that its
quality is quite good.
The disadvantages are: size, price and the need for making new battery
cables because the wiring for both batteries must meet at one point
before it is fed to the 12/24V relay.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Peter Browning <[Email address removed]> wrote:
de
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On
en
then
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ort
awl
ike
 
G

Guest

Guest
Anyone have thoughts on which connection from the battery should be broken,
the positive or the negative?
I ask because on our generators (CAT) the isolator is in the negative but I
have seen isolators in the positive, in fact one of my vehicles already has
an isolator fitted by the PO in the positive.
One advantage of the negative is it might be easier to fit into the circuit,
particularly in vehicles with both 12 & 24V, also the cabling it the
isolator is not "hot" or live. I am thinking of installing an isolator in
the negative and then running switched negatives to the starter/engine and a
couple of points on the chassis.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 15 June 2007 15:55
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Hello,
If you consider fitting the islolator(s) operated manually under the
bonnet, please mind that in case of fire you must act very quickly to
get to each isolator before the fire spreads. Opening the bonnet under
such circumstances may be difficult (e.g. fire damage to the bonnet
catch/cable) if not plain dangerous. So, ideally, the isolator(s)
should be operated remotely from outside the engine bay.
I would not recommend an installation using two separate isolators in
the cab because power cable runs required are pretty long and the
added resistance is significant.
Cheap isolators costing a few quid are just that - cheap. Their
contacts quickly get dirty, add resistance in the starter circuit and
eventually fail within the space of one - two years.
The "remotely switched battery isolator" from Durite (as sold by
Vehicle Wiring Products) has two advantages - it can be operated from
inside the cab and it is dual pole so it disconnects both batteries in
one go. I've had one for several years and can confirm that its
quality is quite good.
The disadvantages are: size, price and the need for making new battery
cables because the wiring for both batteries must meet at one point
before it is fed to the 12/24V relay.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Peter Browning <[Email address removed]> wrote:
inside
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.co.uk/VWPweb2000/battisol/battisol.html
[mailto:[Email address removed]]
On
then
=A3258,
then
But
Milners, a
and
Nobody
rapport
comes.
crawl
even
like
questions.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/843 - Release Date: 10/06/2007
13:39

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Malcolm,
I disconnect the negative pole because in HDJ80 it's easier to wire it
near the 12/24V relay.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Malcolm Bagley <[Email address removed]> wrote:
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G

Guest

Guest
You should disconnect the positive feed (assuming neg earth).
If you disconnect the negative on a negative earth vehicle and you have a
short to ground somewhere else then the cut off may not work.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 15 June 2007 15:57
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Almost bursting into flames
Malcolm,
I disconnect the negative pole because in HDJ80 it's easier to wire it near
the 12/24V relay.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Malcolm Bagley <[Email address removed]> wrote:
broken,
 
G

Guest

Guest
Peter,
The switch needs to be fitted as close to the battery as possible,
which makes little difference to the polarity and eliminates the
danger of shorting to the ground.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/15/07, Peter Browning <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
True but for that to occur the short would have to be between the battery
neg and the isolator - if you switch the positive and have a short on the
section you can't isolate it and it's a fire risk.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Peter Browning
You should disconnect the positive feed (assuming neg earth).
If you disconnect the negative on a negative earth vehicle and you have a
short to ground somewhere else then the cut off may not work.
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/843 - Release Date: 10/06/2007
13:39
 
G

Guest

Guest
Will the remote switch work when you have a short?
Does it require a good voltage to operate?
Even if it could operate, it might burn contacts when disconnecting when
2000 amps run through it, and therefore the contacts stick. On a manual
switch, I believe you could apply more force, to get the contacts apart
quickly without having them weld together from arching.
I see the problem of getting the disconnect close enough to the battery,
and still be able to disconnect in case of a fire. AFAICS there are two
options:
1: Mount it close to the battery to prevent the possibility of shorting
of the cable between the switch and the battery.
On a pure off-road machine, this could even be through the wing or
something, to enable quick and safe operation.
In case of under bonnet install, it will take a few secs to open, and if a
real fire has developed, it might be too late anyhow.
2: Mount it further away, with thicker fireproof cables, which would be
expensive.
The switch would have to have a high rating in order to take the current
of a short without melting down.
Also the starting current of an LC would be well over 200 Amps with a 12 V
starter, and well over 100 Amps in 24 volts.
Remember on cars with two batteries and 12 V starter, like the LC100
series, where the current can get even higher, it might be difficult to
run the main cables "short-proof" to the switch without either using two
disconnects or fireproof insulated cable.
Negative switching could be better because there would be less positive
main-cable running close to body parts, and thereby less possibilty of
shorting-problems other than starter failure. (Which is more likely if the
disconnect-switch-install is less than optimal)
BTW, has anyone heard about this problem on a 100-series? (Getting a bit
worried ;-))
PS
Used to work in an organisation where we had hundreds of LC 80s from the
early 90's, and a quite a few 70 series. Never heard about this problem,
or any of them burning. (Can't keep track of everything though.)
--
Ugo Hu, Oslo, Norway
HDJ100, Auto, AHC, 2001; ex HZJ80
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:24:53 +0200, Jon Wildsmith <[Email address removed]>
wrote:
 
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Guest

Guest
Ugo,
Most power switches have ratings of a few thousand amps for a very
short time. So IMHO it's the reaction time not the force with which
the contacts are opened that matters.
A remote switch which has the contacts closed only when battery
voltage is present will disconnect the power circuit when voltage
drops below 9V or the control circuit is broken.
It also has the advantage over manual switch(es) under the bonnet
that it can be used very quickly, which may be like a 15-20 sec head
start in an emergency (provided that the safety catch on the bonnet is
not too hot to handle).
Cable heat proofing can be done with a special self adhesive foil
which costs ca UKP 15 for a five meter roll, but I personally think
that though engineeringly sound, it is an overkill.
Have a look at contactors on this web page:
http://www.autoelettric.com/eng/products/contactor/index.html
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80 (auto)
On 6/16/07, UHu <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
DC is quite hard to break, then contacts open under load an arc is created.
AC voltages are sine way with a zero volt crossing which is where the arc is
extinguished. DC doesn't have that characteristic and a larger separation
and multiple opening "double break" on the contacts are used. The force or
speed of opening might help with preventing or reducing arcing but the force
is also required on really high currents to overcome magnetic forces that
are present.
One thought, if the engine is running and spinning the starter the current
draw will not be as large as when the starter is powered and cranking the
engine or stalled, perhaps if you turn the ignition off and the starter is
cranking it might be an idea to turn the ignition on and then operate the
isolator or is that risking damage to the ecu etc?
Roman - does that mean you contactor / remote switch is a continuous burden
/ draw or does is get switched on by a separate part of the ignition
circuit?
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford UK
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
Most power switches have ratings of a few thousand amps for a very short
time. So IMHO it's the reaction time not the force with which the contacts
are opened that matters.
A remote switch which has the contacts closed only when battery voltage is
present will disconnect the power circuit when voltage drops below 9V or the
control circuit is broken.
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 15/06/2007
11:31
 
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