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HHO kit now fitted and working

Andy Harvey Nov 4, 2010

  1. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Well I finally got my HHO kit fitted and working - had a bit of a problem with a leak on one of the pipe outlets from the Gas generator which took a while to fix however now it is all plumbed in and working and generating Hydrogen.

    First impressions. Well for the first 100 or so miles there was a noticeable increase in engine vibration but that seems to have calmed down now to where it is actually running smoother than before. I guess this must be the ECU learning the correct micture. In terms of power, a little bit better lower down and quite a bit better mid range but not noticeably any different at the top end.

    Fuel economy, well I have only done one decent run with it but did a measurement from light on to light on with £30 of fuel - unfortunately quite expensive motorway fuel at that - £1.28 per litre.

    Did 140 miles of which all but 4 miles wereff the motorway, general speed on the motorway was 80 ish (well 69mph officer honestly).

    Works out to 27.06 mpg which I don't think is bad, wld have probably got less than 24mpg at that speed without it on.

    Will do a few more measurement runs it beds itself in, I have heard it is quite good at burning off the old crud in the engine.

    Might give the old girl a good dose of Redex to give the injectors a good sort out.

    One other thing, the engine as 165K miles on it on the original injectors.
     
  2. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    Any pics Andy? :mrgreen:
     
  3. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Jon.

    Will take a few maybe tomorrow although it isn't pretty - got to make up a new bracket for the hydrogen generator as the existing one is more functional than nice. Now I have it running the job of tidying it up starts - putting some protection around the pipes in a few places.

    I might even go on ebay and get another resevoir - they are pretty cheap but the one I got with the kit was too tall for the position in the engine bay so I had to cut and shut it with large amounts of araldite - again not pretty but works fine.

    Will get some taken if the weather improves a bit as I think if I go out there now and put the bonnet up it will get blown all the way from Cheltenham to Gloucester.
     
  4. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    It is a bit windy at the moment :lol: I would be interested in a bit of a write up on what you've done?
     
  5. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    OK Jon, will see what I can do. Good thing with them is they work on both Petrol and Diesel, same kit and same fitting.

    I'll set keyboard to screen (rather than pen to paper) and see what I can come up with.
     
  6. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Jon.

    One thing you might be able to help on, have connected the relay to the feed from the ignition light in the dash which works fine but the ECT light now comes on (less than normal brightness) when I switch on the HHO (I have fitted an aircraft type switch so that it can be switched of even if the engine is running).

    Does the ECT light earth through an earth strap on the transmission or the engine earth strap and if so do you think (as I do) that it is a bad earth strap. I know that the CDL light earths that way.

    it's not so much of a problem as it gives me some kind of indication that the HHO is on but would rather sort it if I can.
     
  7. callum

    callum Well-Known Member

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    are you serious about this?

    i thought it was widely held that these devices relied on breaking the first law of thermodynamics.
     
  8. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    I can't see the connection between those circuits but the EWD are in www.mudtoys.com/manuals/100/oewd.pdf if you don't already have that file.
     
  9. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Callum.

    Yep serious about it, remaining sort of sceptical until it proves itself although as far as I can tell the reasoning behind their use seems sound. Making the air coming into the engine having a higher concentration of oxygen (nothing burns without it) and Hydrogen (burns very well as anyone who has seen the Hindenberg fire will attest) seems to say to me that it should work. The only point I'm not sure about is whether the ECU will learn and compensate for the change by making the fuel pump deliver less fuel otherwise I'm not sure ho it will save fuel (maybe just providing more power at smaller throttle opening).

    Not sure the idea breaks any rules of anything, in the end you can make a car run on Hydrogen alone but that requires you store hydrogen on board as no-one has yet created a hdrogen generator that will provide that much hydrogen without being uneconomic in size or electrical usage. The unit on mne provides around 1 Litre per minute and consumes less than 15 amps, there are larger ones that can provide 3 or 4 times as much hydrogen and Oxygen but consume far more amps and the increased load on the alternator will actually cost you mpg to run it.
     
  10. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    I haven't studied the viability of these systems too thoroughly but why would that be the case?
     
  11. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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  12. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Jon there are stories and discussions abouthow useful these things are, all tend to be based around the fact that the HHO generator uses current to produce the gas and the questions abound around whether the increased load on the alternator will actually cause you MPG to get worse by a larger amount than is saved by feeding in the gas. This tends to be more prevelant on the larger 20 plus plate systems that tend to use 30 to 40 amps to run.

    I went quite conservative on mine and got a 13 plate unit which produces around 1 litre of HHO per minute from around 12 amps. Theoretically you could probably get an HHO generator in your vehicle that could provide 6 or 8 litres pe minute and draw around 50 to 60 amps but that would be drawing the same sort of power as running a high power stereo, the AC and 4 spot lamps which would probably cost you about 10-20% on your MPG the question is whether 6 - 8 litres of HHO per minute would give you back that 10-20% in your MPG and then a bit more to justify itself. as I said it is more of an issue the bigger the HHO unit as you get to a point where the unit just gives you back what you lost by using it.

    One advantage I have yet to see (will see at MOT time) is that the cleaner burn caused by running the HHO should give you much reduced emissions. Certainly I can see there is absolutely no smoke out of the back of mine now even on hard accelleration - used to be able to see a bit of a mist in the lightsof the vehicle behind at night, now absolutely nothing.
     
  13. callum

    callum Well-Known Member

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    primary issue is conservation of energy, e.g it cannot be created nor destroyed. that is in order to create your energy (hydrogen) you need to consume energy, hydrolysis of the water using electricity generated by your alternator.

    the premise of this is that the energy required to do this from your alternator is free, but its not. when you increase load on the alternator you burn more fuel. you will note this, especially on a smaller car when you switch on an electrical device and the rpm drops.

    i believe the charlatans selling this stuff will now make claims about completeness of burn with the added hydrogen and i'm sure screeds and screeds of debate exist on countless forums on the subject. one has to ask the question, however, as with all such devices, why would manufacturers not fit it in the first place?

    i'm sorry i don't want to rain on your experiments or anything, which are always fun, but in reality the miracle kits are snake oil and i'd hate to see someone throwing lots of money at it.

    here's maybe a better explanation than i can give, from a reputable source
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... ge/4310717
     
  14. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Yep take on board everything you say and also use it to feed my sceptisism, that being said, yes while the alternator is not providing free ener, the use of a catalyst allowsou to release excess latent energy in the electrolyte.The question with all these things is whether the cost in extra energy used is made up for in the extra energy you are releasing from the electrolyte.

    The ones I have the most issue with are the gas from water systems that claim to give you fuel savings without using anything aditional in the water (no Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide) - in effect you are supposedly getting something for nothing. With a full HHO kit, you are adding extra stuff to the water (in effect a fuel as it enables the water to break down under electrolysis to it's component parts - 1 molecule of Hydorgen and two molecules of Oxygen) and using current to aid that reaction. So you are not really gettting something for nothing, the question is always how much. As the guy I got mine off says, no point in spending a pound to save 50 pence but worth spending a pound to save £1.50.

    I'm not expecting the level of gains that are advertised, I've heard speak of 30-40%. I will be pleased with 10% and cleaner burn and less emissions. With a 5% to 10% saving I will pay for the unit in about 6 months which is worth it when you consider the sort of mileages that I do. All up it cost £230 which isn't bad, and the Potassium Hydroxide is cheap as chips.

    As to why wouldn't manufacturers fit it themselves, I guess one thing is aded complexty and another thing for the customers to have to deal with. What if it runs out of fluid, how would normal customers cope with mixing up electrolyte, also what happens wen it freezes (yes you can't just put antifreeze in it,you have to use Sodium Hydroxide as the electrolyte which is less efficient han the potassium Hydroxide but allows you to mix up an antifreeze solution that really is like snake oil - sugar, alcohol and something else I can't remember heated up on a stove for a while and then added to the electrolyte. I guess the problem for car manufacturers is that this kind of things is still man in a shed type stuf. A bit like Propane injection, known to work very well on Diesels but complex and enthusiast driven rather than mainstream. It's OK for people who like to Tinker but for those who have to call the AA out to change a wheel (the majority of the driving public) it's an absolute non starter until someone finds a way to make this stuff mass market - and all for an extra 10% fuel saving - not really gonna happen. Would have to be able to get electrolyte from a petrol station straight out of a pump, have warnings when the electrolyte is running low and also have them self cleaning - they need to be cleaned out at least once a year to make sure they continue to work.
     
  15. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Just to add now I have thought about it a bit more, what the HHO kits are not doing is creating more energy than exists. There are 3 fuels that are involved, diesel, Catalyst and water. there are t cos to produce this - the cost of the diesel and catalyst and the cost in amps to produce the reaction to split the electrolyte.

    All combustion engines are inherantly inefficent, they produce a number of by product of the burning process the main being power due to there expansion into gas and heat. Some of this heat is released through the exhaust and some is retained in the engine and dispersed by the coolant.This heat is a by product of the burning process and the fact that energy is not created or lot it stays the same.

    However there is insufficent tme to perform a complete burn of the fuel in pretty much any combustion engine either compression (diesel) or spark ignition (petrol /LPG). Therefore a lot of unburnt fuel just exits the vehicle through the exhaust at least 20% of a combustion engine efficiency tends to be lost this way.

    My main understanding of how these things work is that by causing a more complete burn (still not 100%) they reduce the amount of unburnt fuel and therefor cause more efficient use othe main fuel source (Diesel or Petrol).

    The question remains, does the cost of producing the gas in terms of amps and therefore use of the primary fuel outweight the additional efficiency of use of the primary fuel - i.e. if you get 2% better burn, do you use 2% more of the fuel to produce this or even more.

    I guess that is where the proof needs to be shown and believe me I remain sceptical until proven otherwise. That being sad, so far it seems to be doing it's job.
     
  16. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    That seems like it is ignoring any energy in the water, just as the petrol needs another energy input to be useful. I don't know if the HHO has sufficient energy release, of its own or as a by product of its presence though.
     
  17. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Yep that seems to be the crux of it. So I guess that the two things you've got to work with are the burning of the Hydrogen itself (Hydrogen burns pretty well :D ) plus the more efficient burning of the primary fuel due to extra oxygen (everything burns well in Oxygen, very few things burn without it). Now does this extra energy justify the extra amps - myself I think it most likely does, if you can only release a bit of the extra energy in the primary fuel rathe than just blowing it out the back then I think it is probably justified, remembering that the Alternator is only using a very small percentage of the power of the engine, most of the released energy from burning the fuel gets used either to move the car (far harder than moving the alternator), generate heat or relase gas from the tailpipe.
     
  18. Andy Harvey

    Andy Harvey Well-Known Member

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    And another possible argument.

    How do Tunit boxes get you more economy and more power. Normally increased power means more fuel burnt but that means less economy. Alternatively they can promote more efficient burn (burning more of the fuel you put in rather than throwing it out the exhaust unburnt) meaning you can get more useable power for the same amount of fuel or even putting less fuel in the engine but still effectively burning more.The bottom line is you only get more power if you burn more fuel so you either burn more of what you had already invested in, or invest less but stil burn more. Most internal combustion engines are vey inefficient only on average around 20% fficient in turning fuel into useable power, the rest is either wasted as heat or wasted as unburnt investment thrown out the exhaust. This is because the temperature of combustion is relatvely low. Liquid fuelled rockets are far more efficient (60-70%) but they burn the fuel at temperatures which would see your lovely Land Cruiser as a pile of ash on your drive. So to increase power you can either burn a more efficient fuel like dragsters do at higher temperatures - which is one of the reason top fueller engines don't last too long - Methanol burns far better than petrol but the engines run really hot and burn a far greater percentage of the fuel therefore greater power, or you can burn more of your initial investment in fuel and turn it into useable energy to power the vehicle, the more % of the fuel you put in gets burnt the more gets turned into useable energy and the less gets thrown out the exhaust.

    So I think the only way that HHO devices are going to work to give you better economy is by allowing you to increase the efficiency of the burn by burning it in an oxygen rich environment rather than the amount of primary fuel that is replaced by the Hydrogen. That being said the burning hydrogen also releases energy as well as improving the burn efficiency by increasing the combustion temperature - hopefully not too much as that would mean the cooling system won't keep up.

    It will be interesting to see how it all stacks up and whether it is fact or fiction.
     
  19. Paul

    Paul Well-Known Member I am in england

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    Great arguments, but just one issue.
    In the very first post you mention your fuel consumption with the kit fitted but only a "probably" without it fitted.
    Maybe an acurate test with it switched on and then off would settle if it really is doing any good.
     
  20. Jon Wildsmith

    Jon Wildsmith Super Moderator Supporter Guru I am in england

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    Anyone with LPG and the computer software to program the gas ECU would be well equiped to measure the effectiveness in terms of combustion & fuel supply. The LPG setup taps into the petrol injectors, leaving the signal untouched when running on petrol and bypassed on LPG so the petrol injectors don't fire but the LPG ECU has a signal to drive gas injection. The software lets you monitor the petrol injection times and you tune the gas system by swaping back and forth between gas and petrol adjusting gas injection time modifier until the petrol injection times are the same on gas as on petrol so the OEM ECU long term trim values work for both fuels. You could therefore quite easily monitor petrol injection times with & without HHO and not have to guess if it was working or not :thumbup: I'm surprised no one has already done that, it could save some of the speculation.
     
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