Lights gone

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On 5/7/05, john byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
th
lla
ely
ut
ad
al
John,
As you have dip-dim lights, check the two relays in the black box
under the bonnet>
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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check the brake/stop fuse (on Us its by left foot - drivers side) - 15W I
believe.
Lal
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed]
[mailto:[Email address removed]]On Behalf Of Roman
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:32 PM
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Lights gone
On 5/7/05, john byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
with
fella
lovely
but
head
usual
John,
As you have dip-dim lights, check the two relays in the black box
under the bonnet>
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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John

Mine's 1996 with no dim-dip, so the wiring may be different, but this may help:

My headlight fuses & relays are in a box in the engine compartment behind the LHS battery. The cover is clearly marked with separate fuses for left & right / main & dip (ie 4 fuses in all); also the main and dipped relays are marked. If your cover isn't marked have a look in the handbook. If you don't have either I'll sketch out the layout for you.


(1) Obviously check the fuses first, but if all main beams died simultaneously then I don't think this will be the problem as it would require two fuses to fail at the same time.


(2) Next turn on the main beams, and have a good fiddle with the main beam relay. It's possible that it is poorly seated, and you may find that you can persuade the lights to come on. If this is the case it is not necessarily "problem solved": pull out the relay and check for signs of sparking / heating on its connectors. If there is any carbon, charring or discolouration then this indicates that the connection was poor, and it may have weakened the socket into which the relay plugs. You may be able to crimp the socket more tightly with long-nosed pliers, but this can be a bit of a fiddle and there is no guarantee of a long-term fix.

If that doesn't work try swapping over the main and dipped beam relays in that box. (I haven't tried this, and on mine they are different colours - presumeably because the high beam carries more load, but I should think they are interchangeable for testing purposes.) If that now works, and dipped beam doesn't work, you've found the problem: your main beam relay has died.

I recall that you fitted higher wattage bulbs recently, so I think this is the most likely cause. If the failure was due either to the relay itself, or its connectors, you should consider fitting some sort of relief wiring to take the heavy currents out of that circuit - and your lights will be brighter too!


(3) If that was not the problem then I would suspect the steering column switch. Try pulling it towards you in "flash" mode - if that works while conventional main beam position doesn't, then this is the problem. (But this is is not a definitive test to eliminate that switch).


(4) Another possibility is that one of the fusible links (from the RHS battery) supplies the main beam circuit. I don't know whether this is the case, and I haven't traced that wiring on mine. If we reach this stage I'll do some more tracing for you, but I'm fairly confident that it will turn out to be the main beam relay.

Christopher Bell
Devon, UK
1996 1HD-FT
Seems to be that kind of day problems and all. Well heres mine imstill with the misses, na only messing. I was out untill now collecting the young fella from his friends house about 15 miles away , on the way back on these lovely bendy roads on full beam, all went black. Well I wont say what was said but instinct took over and I went to dipped . The problem is all the four head lights just went off altogether, are gone all the head beams, WHY. As usual I dont know why I have dipped and no head beam in all four .
 
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Hi Guys
Thanks for the info on the head beams. Talk about a night when things can go wrong, I had only sent the question to you guys and the broad band went on me aswell, no internet connection at all. I only got it back today. Just a bit of info for all of you who have broad band use DSL filters on all your phones so you dont lose the connection. We had bought a ccordless phone and that was the problem with that because we diden't use a DSl filter and so the broad band went off.
Back to the lights problem.
I have checked all the fuses and their all fine,
I have checked the relay for the head beam and I dont know if its ok because its the only one of its kind there. There are three pictures of square boxes on the cover of the fuses in the engine bay buy the middle one is the only one marked with head on it, the ones either side have a line through them, when you open the cover the middle one has the relay and the right side one has a relay but they are not interchangable because of different contacts points..
I tried the flasher action on the lever on the steering wheel and it does not flash.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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John

Sorry about the broadband. They say "use a microfilter on every extension" - in fact being a cheapskate I run all my telephones off a single microfilter, and it works fine.

Anyway. back to business. I've had a look in my Haynes manual and it does indeed show a junction box that is different to mine, with just a single headlight relay in that box. The wiring diagrams aren't much help, but the most relevant one (labelled "Typical glow plug & emissions control system (75 series)"!!!) suggests that your headlights are run by two relays in series:

(1) Is the on/off one ("headlight control relay"), supplying power to all headlights. So that is working OK, otherwise you'd have no dipped beam.
(2) Switches between dipped and main beam ("headlight dimmer relay"). The wiring diagram suggests that it defaults to low beam in the unpowered state, so I'd suspect that one.

You'll probably find that the low beam still works when you remove the "dimmer" relay, so you have little to lose by taking it apart to have a look inside. This will allow you to work out its pin configuration, and if you're lucky you will be able to get it working by cleaning up corroded contacts, but - assuming that is the problem - you should get a new one.

If you are lucky it will have standard pin configuration and you will be able to get a generic replacement, otherwise it's a trip to Mr Toyota. Either way tot up the total wattage of your main beam headlights, divide by 13.5 to get the amps drawn, then get a relay that gives a fair old margin over that. (eg if you have 2x100w outer, 2x55w inner, then the total wattage is 310w, giving 23 Amps. Go for a relay with a switching capacity of at least 40 Amps.)

Christopher Bell

I have checked all the fuses and their all fine,
I have checked the relay for the head beam and I dont know if its ok because its the only one of its kind there. There are three pictures of square boxes on the cover of the fuses in the engine bay buy the middle one is the only one marked with head on it, the ones either side have a line through them, when you open the cover the middle one has the relay and the right side one has a relay but they are not interchangable because of different contacts points..
I tried the flasher action on the lever on the steering wheel and it does not flash.
 
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Hi Christopher
I went to Toyota and they want 38euro for the relay and it wont be in untill wednesday. I diden't buy it yet, I searched all the local parts stores and the same thing one said they all said I would have to go to the main dealer. Me being me of course I have never known there were relays there never mind taking one apart. I checked two of the bulbs and they are fine is there any need to check the other two. Its not really likely that all four bulbs would have gone together anyway unless they all had a meeting that I diden't know about and will present me with their demands later. Whats involved in taking a relay apart and will ant bits fall out never to be put back again.
John C
92 HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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On 5/9/05, john byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
ill
d
er.
nd
John,
All LC relays are Denso and can be found in a variety of Japanese
cars. Go to a scrapyard and you will find one in a few minutes. Just
pay attention to the pin out pattern.
While you're there, pick up a few more relays, take them apart, study
them and report your findngs here. That will be your Lesson No 1 in
vehicle electrics.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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Hi Guys
It would appear that the relay is ok, I switched on the lights and took the
relay out and the head lights dipped beam went off, I took out the relay
beside it and the same thing happened, so that has to mean the relays are
working ok RIGHT.
whats next for me to do.
John C
92 HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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John

Be brave - think of the first person to eat a German sausage!

Truly you have nothing to lose taking it apart. Yank the plastic cover off the top, and you should then find that there are 5 pins connected up.

There will be a wire wound coil which (remember physics at school?) is an electromagnet, powered by contacts C1 and C2 in my diagram below.
There will also be a set of "changeover" contacts, wired like this:

--- current in ->--O Coil
/ ------- C1
/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
A B ------- C2
| |
Out to Out to
dipped main

When the coil is unpowered the current comes in to O, and the contact is (spring loaded) made with A to provide power to the dipped beams.
When the coil is energised (ie when you select main beam) the contact is flipped over from A to B, supplying the high beam.


You can have fun with a couple of wires and a 12v power source playing with this on a bench to see how it works. You won't need much current to work the coil: anything producing approximately 12v (eg a model train transformer) will do the trick.

The probable cause of failure is that the contact at B has arced away and/or got sooted up. Cleaning it up may restore function for a while, but ultimately it will fail again. Perhaps surprisingly what causes the contacts to fail is switching high beam off (rather than on), since this generates a spark as the current is interrupted. It is possible to fit a spark suppressing capacitor across the contacts (there was a thread about this a few weeks ago when discussing window motors), but it's probably not worth the expense and hassle.

Here endeth the lesson!


Christopher Bell
Hi Christopher

I went to Toyota and they want 38euro for the relay and it wont be in untill wednesday. I diden't buy it yet, I searched all the local parts stores and the same thing one said they all said I would have to go to the main dealer. Me being me of course I have never known there were relays there never mind taking one apart. I checked two of the bulbs and they are fine is there any need to check the other two. Its not really likely that all four bulbs would have gone together anyway unless they all had a meeting that I diden't know about and will present me with their demands later. Whats involved in taking a relay apart and will ant bits fall out never to be put back again.
 
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|
| It would appear that the relay is ok, I switched on the
| lights and took the
| relay out and the head lights dipped beam went off, I took
| out the relay
| beside it and the same thing happened, so that has to mean
| the relays are
| working ok RIGHT.
| whats next for me to do.
|
John
Sorry - emails crossed.
What this means is that one relay switches the headlight current on/off - so pulling it out turns them off.
And the other switches between main and dipped - so pulling that out interrupts the supply too.
Sorry, my fault, I said that it would work on dipped beam without one, but I was wrong - I should have read the wiring diagram more closely. The one that is giving trouble is the one that will be giving a muted "click" when you switch from dipped to main beam.
Mea culpa!
Christopher Bell
 
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Hey Christopher
I never did anything as exciting as physics in school. When we went to
school we only had the horse and cart and straw hats and shoes. I did metal
work really so have no idea of electricts ,currents, flows, wattage,
starters, relays etc etc. But in saying that we are getting to the problem.
the relay is knackered in some way or another IS IT im so sure NOT, wish I
was. If that is the case which one is it that is knackered.
John C
92 HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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Hey Christopher
Just a thought, you know how dangerious they can be, but is there any way to
test to see if the relay is bad. Put a wire from one terminal to another or
will I blow myself up or something else.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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John
Without a multimeter you would be poking in the dark a bit.
Do the "which relay clicks when I switch from dipped to main beam" test to find out which one is knackered. Order a new one, and when it is fitted and you have nothing to lose take the old one apart to figure out how it works.
I would suggest getting yourself a multimeter anyway, a simple one is quite adequate and pretty cheap: here's one from Maplin for =A39.99 http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=3D25414&doy=3D9m5. I prefer "analogue" (ie with a dial and needle) rather than "digital" (ie with numbers), as the former gives you a better feel for how things are changing.
CB
|
| Just a thought, you know how dangerious they can be, but is
| there any way to
| test to see if the relay is bad. Put a wire from one terminal
| to another or
| will I blow myself up or something else.
|
 
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On 5/9/05, john byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Shoes! You lucky barsteward! When we went to school we had one shoe,
.... and we used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no
furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled
together in one corner for fear of falling.
;-)
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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| On 5/9/05, john byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
| > Hey Christopher
| >
| > I never did anything as exciting as physics in school. When
| we went to
| > school we only had the horse and cart and straw hats and shoes.
|
| Shoes! You lucky barsteward! When we went to school we had one shoe,
| .... and we used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no
| furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled
| together in one corner for fear of falling.
|
... and they were the best years of your life!
 
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On 5/9/05, Christopher Bell <[Email address removed]> wrote:
o find out which one is knackered. Order a new one, and when it is fitted and you have nothing to lose take the old one apart to figure out how it works.
te adequate and pretty cheap: here's one from Maplin for =A39.99 http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=3D25414&doy=3D9m5.
Oh, that's expensive! Having had such a miserable childhod, John
wouldn't spend like there was no tomorrow. Maplin has another
multimeter on sale for =A32.99! ( http://tinyurl.com/999sp )
I had a very similar problem with the lights (driving on low beam and
suddenly finding myself in complete darkness). It turned out that the
dim/dip relay (brown) contacts were corroded and althought the relay
clicked, it did not conduct current.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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On 5/9/05, Christopher Bell <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Christopher,
"And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't
believe you."
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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Hey Roman
Your the lucky one at least you had a room,we were still in the bushes and
if you were really lucky you got to sleep in the hole in the log, now that
was a treat. Did I mention that the straw hats and shoes were donated by the
relatives of a dead person who died of gangerious fever.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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Roman
Now back to the task, there is a brown and a green relay and you are saying
that even if they click they can still be bad. So how am I to know which one
is gone, or bad, or working. Come on tell me somebody else will be in the
good spot (the log).
Will I take it apart and if so what am I looking for. Are all relays the
same in this type (Square) because if I can get one in the scrap yard will
it do off any vehicle or does it have to be a certain type.
Thanks for all the help
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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Hi Guys
Do maplan deliver outside of the uk.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Ireland
 
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