noise and air intake

G

Guest

Guest
Hi Guys
I was just wondering if any of you could explain to me two things.
The first being, air intake for the engine.
I was lead to believe that the ram air effect that you get from the snorkel
top gives for better running of the engine beacuse of the better air flow
and only if this is pointed forward and not in any other direction.
Well my confusion exsists because I have been noticing the vast amount of
HGVs that have the air intake up high but to the side of the cab.
Now theses engines are a wee bit bigger than ours but yet there air flow
seems to be good to the side of the cab or they wouldnot be there.
So why one rule for the big trucks and one for our cruisers.
The second is more relivent to me but as you have probabbly heard me moaning
of late about my brakes and how many times I have had a guy look at them etc
etc etc.
Well at this point I have new pads/discs/calipers at the back, brake shoes
and still I have a noise like metal off metal.
If I take the wheel off and spin the rear hub I can hear an intermittant
grinding of matal on matal but not severe enought to stop the hub.
I know its coming from the space between the back of the hub and the
flange/back plate thingy.
As I cant take the caliper off cause I cant open the bolts I would like to
know what is in that space that could cause this rubbing noise.
I can hear it when driving along and it gets worse when the cruiser is
tilted to one side slightly, like when cornering or at round abouts.
It seems to stop or get faint when i apply the brakes, but this could just
be my imagination.
I would like to get a guy to look at it but seeing as though all the bits
are new and I dont want to be ripped off again by the Yaris parts fitter
again with him saying things like O I dont know, ill have to strip it down,
and then spending more time thinking how much he can rip me off for than
actually knowing what is wrong, cause he doesn't have a clue.
I can do that for myself and its all free.
I have checked that there is distance between the hub and the backing
plate/flange but dont knoe what else to do.
Your thought please.
cheeerrs
john 92 HDj 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
Sounds like a stone trapped between disk and backplate to me.
But then what do I know?!!
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of John Byrne
Sent: 08 June 2006 18:14
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] noise and air intake
Hi Guys
Well at this point I have new pads/discs/calipers at the back, brake shoes
and still I have a noise like metal off metal.
If I take the wheel off and spin the rear hub I can hear an intermittant
grinding of matal on matal but not severe enought to stop the hub.
I know its coming from the space between the back of the hub and the
flange/back plate thingy.
 
G

Guest

Guest
John,
I'll go with the stone theory as I had this in Iceland. The stone
usually winds up at the bottom of the backplate, you can sometimes get
them out by flexing the plate and levering them, they have been known
to come out when reversing and applying the brakes. Failing these Two
ideas it's take it apart time.
The ram air affect is a myth unless you are really motoring,
probably faster than cruisers can go. Any small benefit is negated by
the length of intake. Lorries may do that for a number of reasons but
I suspect that the side facing intake does not draw in so much dust
from other traffic.
Regards, Clive.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Peter and Clive
Thanks for the info, I thought of that but then i said well if the rear
disc/drum was changed and new pads and a caliper was put on would the guy
not have seen a stone in there while he was doing this work. Or is that me
being a little niave to have thought of this in the first place.
cheers
john
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clive Marks" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] noise and air intake
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Hey clive
Thanks for the insight into this little question.
Its just I have seen the trucks and it got me thinkling again. I then saw a
snorkel for a cruiser that is moulded to the front A pillar and has a side
intake instead of the front facing one.
So would I be right in thinking that it the compression of the
engine/pistons that draws the air into the air intake and not the speed that
you are travelling at.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
SNIP
The ram air affect is a myth unless you are really motoring,
probably faster than cruisers can go. Any small benefit is negated by
the length of intake. Lorries may do that for a number of reasons but
I suspect that the side facing intake does not draw in so much dust
from other traffic.
Regards, Clive.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Clive,
Ram air effect is NOT a myth if the snorkel is designed properly.
That one is a series of smooth bends in 4" exhaust tube. The side of the
aircleaner has been cut open and remade as a tangential 4 " inlet to
gude air smoothly into the air cleaner. Stock at wide open acceleration
the cruiser intake creates 25" water intake restriction, of this 7" is
the pressure drop across the air box & the other 18" is getting the air
into the airbox, with the snorkel it peaks at 15" total at around 50km/h
at wide open throttle in an auto truck. As the truck reaches 80-90km/h
the restriction is less than 10". If the ducting is made out of 3" tube
the restriction is worse than stock as the pipe friction exceeds the
gain from the ram effect. The acceleration is better the faster you go
until you hit the governor, which of course would only be done on a
private road.
As far as I know all commercially made snorkels are designed froma
preventing water ingress perspective not a performance increase as well
method.
John some face to the side as the ram maynot have been designed to shed
rain, you can't see it in the phot but that Donaldson ram is designed to
shed water out fine slots and allow only air into the intake not rain.
Driving in a long convoy ona dusty road is hard no matter what direction
you point the ram.
Cheers,
Craig.
John Byrne wrote:
> Hey clive
> Thanks for the insight into this little question.
> Its just I have seen the trucks and it got me thinkling again. I then
> saw a snorkel for a cruiser that is moulded to the front A pillar and
> has a side intake instead of the front facing one.
> So would I be right in thinking that it the compression of the
> engine/pistons that draws the air into the air intake and not the
> speed that you are travelling at.
> cheers
> john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
> SNIP
> The ram air affect is a myth unless you are really motoring,
> probably faster than cruisers can go. Any small benefit is negated by
> the length of intake. Lorries may do that for a number of reasons but
> I suspect that the side facing intake does not draw in so much dust
> from other traffic.
>
> Regards, Clive.
>
> --
> European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
> Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
>
>
 
G

Guest

Guest
do you have the part number for the donaldson top?? the only one i could
get was the "Rain Cap". its fine, but i'd rather have the proper one
that sheds the water.
thanks
brian
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Brian
I thought you had left, been lurking.
Nice to see you are hanging in there.
I tried to contact you several times but must have failed.
Whats the story about meeting up some time.
cheers
John 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
john, im still here, pulling down mail whenever i get a spare moment
every second or third day. my email has been out of action as i had it
all being forwarded to my blackberry but it wasnt getting deleted off
the server so the server auto deletes when too many areon it, nice of it
to look out for me an all that. im in kildare, not 45 minutes from you.
if you want to meet up sometime, no prob. 0877804070 will get me pretty
much 24/7.
brian
John Byrne wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Brian,
Sorry for the shockingly slow reply I can't find the part number but it
is the common garden variety Donaldson truck ram but some people don't
realise how it works in relation to shedding rain. I have added a pic to
explain.
On a 4" ram the pipe slips up inside it about 4" the rain is much denser
than air so it will not turn a corner easily so it fly's straight to the
back wall of the ram and dribbles down the sides and runs out the slots
while the less dense air travels into the snorkel pipe. That is why the
ram top is intended to be vertical sometimes you see the ram on homemade
snorkels parallel to the A-pillar then they won't work properly as far
as sheeding rain.
Diesels love the pressure fed air but some petrol engines engine
management can get confused when pressure fed via big snorkel.
Cheers,
Craig.
Brian - Irish 4x4 wrote:
> do you have the part number for the donaldson top?? the only one i
> could get was the "Rain Cap". its fine, but i'd rather have the proper
> one that sheds the water.
>
> thanks
>
> brian
>
> --
> European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
> Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
>
>
 
G

Guest

Guest
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Nice drawing, I wondered how it worked. If you look around you will see the
principal quite often on louver blades.

One issue, is it required ie, what volume of rain would need to be taken in
case problems and what would those problems be? Also doesn=92t the air
filter usually incorporate a drop-out for water.

(Finally =96 some motorcyclists with old classic bikes say they get more power
from engines in the damp, better compression?)

All theoretical for me, don=92t fancy getting my 2F petrol in deep enough to
need a snorkel (famous last words?).

Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________


_____
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 19 June 2006 12:38
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] noise and air intake

Hi Brian,
Sorry for the shockingly slow reply I can't find the part number but it is
the common garden variety Donaldson truck ram but some people don't realise
how it works in relation to shedding rain. I have added a pic to explain.
On a 4" ram the pipe slips up inside it about 4" the rain is much denser
than air so it will not turn a corner easily so it fly's straight to the
back wall of the ram and dribbles down the sides and runs out the slots
while the less dense air travels into the snorkel pipe. That is why the ram
top is intended to be vertical sometimes you see the ram on homemade
snorkels parallel to the A-pillar then they won't work properly as far as
sheeding rain.
Diesels love the pressure fed air but some petrol engines engine management
can get confused when pressure fed via big snorkel.
Cheers,
Craig.
Brian - Irish 4x4 wrote:
do you have the part number for the donaldson top?? the only one i could get
was the "Rain Cap". its fine, but i'd rather have the proper one that sheds
the water.
thanks
brian
--
European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
Further Info: HYPERLINK
"http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/"http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/ --
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nice drawing, I wondered how it worked.  If
you look around you will see the principal quite often on louver blades.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One issue, is it required ie, what volume
of rain would need to be taken in case problems and what would those problems
be?  Also doesn’t  the air filter usually incorporate a
drop-out for water.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(Finally – some motorcyclists with
old classic bikes say they get more power from engines in the damp, better
compression?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All theoretical for me, don’t fancy
getting my 2F petrol in deep enough to need a snorkel (famous last words?).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Malcolm Bagley<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Stafford</span></font></st1:City>,
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">UK</st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font>
<font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> [Email address removed]
[mailto:[Email address removed]] <span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span>
Craig Vincent

<span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span> 19 June 2006 12:38

<span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span> [Email address removed]

<span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span> Re: [ELCO] noise and air
intake</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

Hi Brian,

Sorry for the shockingly slow reply I can't find the part number but it is the
common garden variety Donaldson truck ram but some people don't realise how it
works in relation to shedding rain. I have added a pic to explain.

<img width=3D340 height=3D480 id=3D"_x0000_i1025"
src=3D"cid:[email protected]">

On a 4" ram the pipe slips up inside it about 4" the rain is much
denser than air so it will not turn a corner easily so it fly's straight to the
back wall of the ram and dribbles down the sides and runs out the slots while
the less dense air travels into the snorkel pipe. That is why the ram top is
intended to be vertical sometimes you see the ram on homemade snorkels parallel
to the A-pillar then they won't work properly as far as sheeding rain.

Diesels love the pressure fed air but some petrol engines engine management can
get confused when pressure fed via big snorkel.



Cheers,

Craig.



Brian - Irish 4x4 wrote:



<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>do you have the part
number for the donaldson top?? the only one i could get was the "Rain
Cap". its fine, but i'd rather have the proper one that sheds the water.



thanks



brian



--

European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List

Further Info: <a href=3D"http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/">http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/</a>




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G

Guest

Guest
Hi Malcolm,
The cruiser aircleaner does include a water outlet, but if you have a
'All American Imports' intercooler kit it is blocked off during the
install, I block them off as if you are stuck in deep water the water
drain on the aircleaner lets water in then the engine hydraulic's.
I don't add a snorkel for the deep water acrossing ability I add it for
the free power increase, very noticeable above 100km/h, and the economy
improvement. I try to avoid deep water due to all the post water
maintenance hassles. Does not show up in most commercial snorkels as
they are generally too small. 4" works well on a diesel turbo cruiser.
On a 2.8L hliux with a turbo added and a 8" donaldson aircleaner,
substantially bigger than stock, a 3" snorkel is too small as all the
positive pressure you get at the top is lost in pressure drops through
the duct work.
A 70 series cruiser with a Australian 'Safari' snorkel and 13BT factory
turbo 3.4L the before and after snorkel intake restriction is the same
at 100-120km/h as it was stock so the ram effect equals the losses in
the ductwork.
Cheers,
Craig.
Malcolm Bagley wrote:
> Nice drawing, I wondered how it worked. If you look around you will
> see the principal quite often on louver blades.
>
>
>
> One issue, is it required ie, what volume of rain would need to be
> taken in case problems and what would those problems be? Also doesn?t
> the air filter usually incorporate a drop-out for water.
>
>
>
> (Finally ? some motorcyclists with old classic bikes say they get more
> power from engines in the damp, better compression?)
>
>
>
> All theoretical for me, don?t fancy getting my 2F petrol in deep
> enough to need a snorkel (famous last words?).
>
>
>
> Malcolm Bagley
>
> Stafford, UK
>
> 1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
>
>
Snip
 
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