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Sergeant Alexander Blackman

Ain't it it great when friends can debate matters of such personal principal agreeing and disagreeing to various degree on different points without descending into bitter argument :icon-smile:
Well said Shayne, it's a shame that some people seem to have such thin skins. :think:
 
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Thank you Shayne, Clive & Cossack - WELL SAID those men!:clap:

As much as we debate the rights and wrongs, surely there is something fundamentally wrong with a society which puts soldiers into 'peacekeeping' roles against terrorists/insurgents/etc with incredibly restrictive rules of engagement and then applies judgement of civilian law from the comfort of a courtroom! And now we spend millions on British lawyers to prosecute potential claims coming out of the woodwork in Iraq - :think:

Sadly though, nothing changes - our successive Governments still expect kids (and experienced NCOs) to go repeatedly into harms way to satisfy their ambitions... and then treat them appallingly afterwards - Help For Heroes & Royal British Legion to name but two brilliant organisations picking up where the Government has consistently broken its Covenant with the Forces!

Have you any idea of the criminal dereliction Blairs Government covered up over the Snatch Landrovers?
Sending troops into combat without basic equipment should have been treated as a war crime in itself!

http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.org/
http://www.soldierscharity.org/?gclid=CIynuqTRpbsCFTHLtAodA1EAUA
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/how-to-give/?gclid=COL8gOjRpbsCFTHLtAodA1EAUA

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/endeavour-press/weve-been-treating-our-so_b_1246618.html

Suggestion: If every politician who was so keen to 'go to war' either had to do so themselves (for a period of time so they could 'return' to Parliament, OR send a close member of their family out to serve (as the Royals have done) they might be less keen to jump on the bandwagon. I wonder how Tony Blair might have acted if his son had had to serve? (bring back National Service, anyone...:whistle:)

Forgive my ramblings - too much time to reflect...
 
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Agree - good discussion on this sad event. But he was clearly guilty under the Geneva Convention rules and he wasn't in a firefight or under threat so "heat of the moment" is not an excuse. Worse he is a very experienced senior NCO trained to set an example, not a raw teenager, and he even said on the vid that he knew he was breaking the law, so the Law really had no choice. His big mistake was getting caught. I guess "there but for the grace...." would be in the mind of others in his position.

Good points made though about the stresses he was under and had been for a long time, with his long active service record. I think he will appeal and with a good legal team stands a very good chance of getting the sentence cancelled or reduced on the grounds of his clear suffering from the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Hope so - we need people with his skills.
 
Good post Euan its a disgrace these charities even exist they shouldn't be needed . I have lost a few good friends to the military - not to bullets , bombs , mines and missiles , but to training . Thankfully they all came back in good physical condition , but mentally ............... Each seemed unable to function socially in civvy street , they went away as one of the lads and came back believing , due to training , they were bigger and better , rougher and tougher , that they were superior and in command . One is now a hermit receiving disability for post trauma depression i haven't in truth seen him for years . Another got so tired of getting beat up in fights he himself started he armed himself and will spend a very long time in prison . Another made a deliberate effort to kill himself with drink and drugs only to fail suffering a massive heart attack instead and is left reduced to a cripple . The best outcome i've seen is a mate i was talking to only last week he's the big fella that stands at the end of the bar growling at everyone and everything , he lives his life like hes on a schedule up at 6 work at 7 finish at 5 pub at 6 drunk by 9 and bed by 10 regardless of the fact he is permanently stoned . Only because he knows i have no fear of him i can occasionally draw him into conversation and still beneath all the posturing (he emits so much violence complete strangers will use another door rather than pass by him) he is a thoroughly decent and polite bloke .

What does receiving charity do to men like this , it must be soul destroying .
 
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afaik the prosecution was under UK law not EU, so in/out would make no difference.
 
Aye but if we weren't in the EU rule would be returned to the people and politicians would be forced to listen .
 
What he did was wrong. Whoever allowed the footage to be made public was even more wrong. The fact that the footage was allowed to escape into the wild turned this whole affair into a propaganda exercise to feed hatred and gee up patriotism and sell newspapers, he became a political prop as a direct result of that, leaving the authorities no choice but to prosecute.

I'd like to know the full ins and outs of how the footage got released into the wild, I doubt it was by accident.
 
:text-+1: good article that Shayne, a retrial on manslaughter charges seems most apropriate under the circumstances.

This thread has had me in an emotional retrospective mood all day, this is what's been going through my mind. My mothers partner years ago was an RAF pilot on bombers during WWII, shot down twice, once over Newcastle where he was badly burnt, he became one of the first "guinea pigs" for plastic surgery, they grew a new nose for him out of his cheek (and you couldn't see any scar tissue either, amazing doctoring for the time) the other time he was shot down over Paris, he, and a couple of his crew were in hiding with the resistance, the local Gestapo lined up a bunch of villagers to be shot if the bomber crew were not handed in, no-one would hand them in, even some of the people lined up to be shot knew where they were but refused to co-operate with the Germans, even in the face of death. The crew handed themselves in to the local French police before anyone was murdered. He told me about being driven round paris given a guided tour by a member of the French Secret police who spoke perfect english after studying at Oxford the same year he himself at been at the same university. I asked him why he didn't give the policeman the good news and leg it, he explained the Germans would have repeated the murder squad thing until they were captured, so he sucked it up. He was tortured, badly, by the German Gestapo.

Many years later he went to France on some comemorative type thing, met some members of the resistance who had helped him and his crew, some of the villagers who had been lined up, the policeman who had given him the guided tour, and the German officer who had tortured him.

We talked for hours, I didn't say much, I was 19yo been in the Navy for a year, he was in his 70's suffering from cancer in his leg, heavily dosed up on morphine, yet he remembered everything as if it were yesterday. After the Gestapo finished with him, he was sent to a POW camp, as he was driven through the gates there was an appell call, the OIC read out all the names of the POWs who had been killed during an escape, he recalled a great many of the 50 names read out, it was Stalag Luft III, they made a film about it, some of the older members will no doubt remember it, the POWs were let out of the trucks in a field after capture, and machine gunned.

I asked him what he felt towards the German officer who had tortured him, when they met years later. He said they just hugged and cried for a long moment, like long lost brothers, no words were exchanged.

Imagine that.

I'm not sure why I posted this, I guess just to point out that peculiar things happen in wars. I guess Sgt. Blackman wishes he could take it back, I guess a lot of folks over the years wish they could have taken it back too. Personally I think Sgt. Blackman should be given another chance at a fair trial.
 
whether we are in the EU or not makes no difference, he broke the Hague conventions that we signed up to, as the Geneva conventions, many years ago. These conventions are sacrosanct and have to be adhered to whatever the circumstances if we are to draw any kind of humanity from the horror of war. whether the enemy abides by them or not is irrelevant.

I had a view that the only good insurgent was a dead insurgent, but as a medic, I had to treat our own and the enemy, and I always treated them courteously and correctly, the same as our own. Looking from a pragmatic viewpoint, if they are treated like this maybe they will start to think 'hang on, is everything I have been told about these infidels really true?'

I'm afraid I believe he had to be prosecuted, and I don't believe PTSD, (a very over used diagnosis) affects that. As an NCO he has to set an example, and be made an example of. Young soldiers have to know that this is unacceptable behaviour.

The rules of engagement are frequently shite, the ones in Yugoslavia were shockingly awful, political, and allowed genocidal slaughter of innocent civilians, and I for one couldn't have stood by and watched some of those things happen (all credit to those who had the discipline to do so) but this was a clear breach of international law, not the rules of engagement and that has no place in the armed forces of a civilised country. We have the best Army in the world, and that is largely down to discipline and people like this shame that reputation.
 
I can only respect your point of view Moggy it is understandable from someone who has bound himself to such admirable medical ethics but not everyone is personally bound to that same code .

IMO the only people qualified to judge Blackman were standing there with him when he pulled the trigger .

Two questions i would like to ask them (his subordinates) -

1, Did you feel tired scared and abandoned ?

2, Did Sergeant Blackman's momentary act of bravado give you fortitude and resolve ?
 
:text-+1: good article that Shayne, a retrial on manslaughter charges seems most apropriate under the circumstances.

This thread has had me in an emotional retrospective mood all day, this is what's been going through my mind. My mothers partner years ago was an RAF pilot on bombers during WWII, shot down twice, once over Newcastle where he was badly burnt, he became one of the first "guinea pigs" for plastic surgery, they grew a new nose for him out of his cheek (and you couldn't see any scar tissue either, amazing doctoring for the time) the other time he was shot down over Paris, he, and a couple of his crew were in hiding with the resistance, the local Gestapo lined up a bunch of villagers to be shot if the bomber crew were not handed in, no-one would hand them in, even some of the people lined up to be shot knew where they were but refused to co-operate with the Germans, even in the face of death. The crew handed themselves in to the local French police before anyone was murdered. He told me about being driven round paris given a guided tour by a member of the French Secret police who spoke perfect english after studying at Oxford the same year he himself at been at the same university. I asked him why he didn't give the policeman the good news and leg it, he explained the Germans would have repeated the murder squad thing until they were captured, so he sucked it up. He was tortured, badly, by the German Gestapo.

Many years later he went to France on some comemorative type thing, met some members of the resistance who had helped him and his crew, some of the villagers who had been lined up, the policeman who had given him the guided tour, and the German officer who had tortured him.

We talked for hours, I didn't say much, I was 19yo been in the Navy for a year, he was in his 70's suffering from cancer in his leg, heavily dosed up on morphine, yet he remembered everything as if it were yesterday. After the Gestapo finished with him, he was sent to a POW camp, as he was driven through the gates there was an appell call, the OIC read out all the names of the POWs who had been killed during an escape, he recalled a great many of the 50 names read out, it was Stalag Luft III, they made a film about it, some of the older members will no doubt remember it, the POWs were let out of the trucks in a field after capture, and machine gunned.

I asked him what he felt towards the German officer who had tortured him, when they met years later. He said they just hugged and cried for a long moment, like long lost brothers, no words were exchanged.

Imagine that.

I'm not sure why I posted this, I guess just to point out that peculiar things happen in wars. I guess Sgt. Blackman wishes he could take it back, I guess a lot of folks over the years wish they could have taken it back too. Personally I think Sgt. Blackman should be given another chance at a fair trial.

I liked Pumpy's post a lot. Excuse me if I ramble a bit...

It's quite incredible (but not uncommon) that adversaries in armed conflict can behave that way long after the event. The scars must be deep in these circumstances, yet as human beings they can still be human to each other on equal terms.

Whatever war crimes the German officer committed with the torture and likewise the suffering endured by the victim, they still managed to hold on to human dignity and compassion.

It's ironic to me that the same motivations can, on one hand make us behave in such a heinous way to our fellow mankind (in a way that no animal could or would) yet allow us to forgive (not forget) on the other hand.

IMO the modern age of computer game style warfare will to some extent reduce the human component of war, the WWII type of combat will (or already has) become a thing of the past, along with the humanity issues that went with it. The steadfast bravery shown by the resistance (French or otherwise) was human, not partisan, resilient to the inhumanity of the Nazi goal for the creation of a purified Aryan Race.

We should learn the lesson that the only way to create a tolerant war free world, is to avoid racial intolerance and condemn those that are racially intolerant.

Purported Muslim extremists are now pushing and testing the boundaries of religious intolerance. For me, it's going to be interesting how the politicians deal with this dilemma on the ground, in British and European streets.

It's too soon to tell as yet, all the politicians have done so far is pressed the "fire" button from the safety of a remote control room.
 
so are Christian extremists Clive (pushing the boundaries of religious intolerance), in fact, I find the American christian extremists far more disturbing than the Muslim ones. Like the Muslim extremists, they will even murder other Christians!

I detest all religious and cultural intolerance and that includes the type incited in this country by the daily fail and the bum who appeal to the lowest common denominator to drum up intolerance, hatred and ignorance of the type that will only have one conclusion.

We laugh at flump (although in fact it's past being a laughing matter) but we need to look at the Jokers in our own pack
 
I can only respect your point of view Moggy it is understandable from someone who has bound himself to such admirable medical ethics but not everyone is personally bound to that same code .

thats the thing though Shane, if you are a soldier, you are bound by that code, everyone. Every soldier is taught about the Hague conventions, every soldier knows you cannot execute prisoners.
 
thats the thing though Shane, if you are a soldier, you are bound by that code, everyone. Every soldier is taught about the Hague conventions, every soldier knows you cannot execute prisoners.

I worked with 2nd ww2 men when I started work and the ones that fought in the Pacific war told of the fanatical Japanese soldiers who would lie doggo
until their enemy had passed and then fire into their backs,so our soldiers
showed no mercy after this.I am sure the fanatics are of the same ilk.
Geneva Convention? Observed when convenient.Medical volunteers who
I know have been bombed by allies when working in hospitals in the Middle East.
It is well documented.
 
I worked with 2nd ww2 men when I started work and the ones that fought in the Pacific war told of the fanatical Japanese soldiers who would lie doggo
until their enemy had passed and then fire into their backs,so our soldiers
showed no mercy after this.I am sure the fanatics are of the same ilk.
Geneva Convention? Observed when convenient.Medical volunteers who
I know have been bombed by allies when working in hospitals in the Middle East.
It is well documented.
the Japanese also bayoneted patients in their beds, raped nurses and murdered doctors. In Arnhem a British medic was shot while treating a German casualty. I could name any number of other terrible and shocking breaches of the Geneva conventions, doesn't make it right doing it yourself and the case of Sgt Blackman is not the same, in and way, as that of Japanese soldiers playing dead. You cannot justify a breach of the Geneva conventions using an example of a different enemy from 70+ years ago with entirely different circumstances!

The biggest breach was when the insurgents mortared the pizza hut at Shaiba log base so I couldn't order pizza anymore!!:smirk:
 
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The biggest breach was when the insurgents mortared the pizza hut at Shaiba log base so I couldn't order pizza anymore!!:smirk:
And there gentlemen is British humour at it's best. :lol:
 
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