The corona virus thread

[jibberjabber]

careful what you wish for.In Spain 500000 fines have been handed, starting at 600 euros under a draconian law that basically means the individual police can simply decide that what you say is bollocks & write you up.Going down the allotment is banned but queuing up in the supermarket to buy veg is ok.
Mark W reports on another thread that up to 3000 people are being arrested in Morocco a day for not having the correct paperwork.You can bet that much of them can't or wont pay the backhander that's needed to get the permission.A similar situation is reported in Rumania apparently millions of fins handed out.
Sure some idiots are breaking the rules but ALL governments were warned well in advance about the possible consequences in advance & did little or nothing in time.

Any and every opportunity to 'have a go' at any government around the world and you'll take it.

 

[jibberjabber]

No shortage of anything here so far as i know , if there non on the supermarket shelf today it will be there tomorrow . Individuals selling fruit , veg and meat on facebook are enjoying a boom and for sure the quality beats anything we have had for years from supermarkets , spuds are bigger than eggs who wudda thunk it !

Covoidiots are a tiny minority and but a spec on the landscape of the virus map , think of it this way if i haven't seen anyone for a month and neither have you what consequences are likely to occur if we meet ?

The infection rate - 1 person infects 2/3/4 whatever and that we know some never suffer any symptoms while carrying/spreading the virus effectively means those obediently locked down are still infecting others . Most visit shops to . Does anyone think the lockdown measures will cure the human race of common colds , not a chance . This virus is here to stay until medical science catches up with it .

Enforced poverty will lead to riots . Its too soon to say it but i think the only way out of lockdown is to unofficially relax enforcement while insisting the rules will be enforced .

They couldn't ban smoking outright because its up to me whether or not i want to take that risk . In the short term a manageable outcome is all they can aim for which sadly means more hospital beds and more morgues to facilitate the new norm .

I might have known you'd disagree.

 

[Shayne]

I'm not disagreeing with anything i'm just saying there is no solution .

Perhaps if i simplify it by saying headmaster has 500 kids agree the school could be better and they want it to be better , and then he informs them that the entire school will report to detention noon and evening every day for the entire term , for the greater good . What result might he expect ?

 

[MarkW]

Mark W reports on another thread that up to 3000 people are being arrested in Morocco a day for not having the correct paperwork.You can bet that much of them can't or wont pay the backhander that's needed to get the permission.

It was in this thread, and I posted that people are being arrested for breaching the restrictions. Travel permits are issued free so no payment, legitimate or backhander, are needed. You just see the senior official in the town with your passport or ID and he signs and issues the permit needed to travel for food, work or medical treatment.

Now Ramadan has started no travel is permitted between 7pm and 5am. People are arrested for travel without a permit, breaching the curfew, not wearing a face mask and spreading fake news about the virus. Morocco's quick actions on restricting travel and implementing a lock down so far seem to be paying off with 4000 cases and 200 or so deaths. Action European governments delayed taking and are now suffereing as a result

 

[goodoldboy]

You just see the senior official in the town with your passport or ID and he signs and issues the permit needed to travel for food, work or medical treatment.

maybe it's different for foreigners ? Moroccans iv'e worked with have all told stories of corrupt , brutal police & a different attitude to tourists.

 

[MarkW]

No, its exactly the same for everyone here with the state of emergency. After 20+ years here I've got a lot of local friends, none of them have had any problems getting permits.

Things were different under the old King but the current one has done a lot to reduce corruption and improve things. Tourists do get a slightly different approach, eg at checkpoint a tourist will get waved through where locals may get stopped but commit a crime and you'll face the same penalties as a local. We did a run out for supplies a couple of days ago and our permits were checked slightly less closely as the locals, but they were still checked.

Things aren't perfect, there are still corrupt police in places but not as bad as it was. You really wouldn't want to get locked up in a Moroccan prison though, unlike the cushy prisons in the UK prisons here are tough and do very well as a deterrent to criminals

 

[flint]

I was there in 1971 when there was a coup attempt. It was a bit tense in the cities, I saw one man (not a tourist) being arrested in Marrakesh and I would be surprised if he recovered from the beating he got before being driven away. I didn't get too much hassle from the police, just the occasional stop for a quick look over and paperwork checks, otherwise local people out in the country were generally kind and hospitable.

 

[goodoldboy]

From today in Spain kids under the age of 14 are allowed out for 1hour a day up to 1KM from home accompanied by an older family member.The government has also announced that people will be permitted to go out & do sports on May 2nd if the situation evolves favourably.

 

[jibberjabber]

It was in this thread, and I posted that people are being arrested for breaching the restrictions. Travel permits are issued free so no payment, legitimate or backhander, are needed. You just see the senior official in the town with your passport or ID and he signs and issues the permit needed to travel for food, work or medical treatment.

Now Ramadan has started no travel is permitted between 7pm and 5am. People are arrested for travel without a permit, breaching the curfew, not wearing a face mask and spreading fake news about the virus. Morocco's quick actions on restricting travel and implementing a lock down so far seem to be paying off with 4000 cases and 200 or so deaths. Action European governments delayed taking and are now suffereing as a result

So, most of what some are saying about so called "Lockdown" in other countrys is just, scare mongering and pure fantasty

 

[jibberjabber]

No, its exactly the same for everyone here with the state of emergency. After 20+ years here I've got a lot of local friends, none of them have had any problems getting permits.

Things were different under the old King but the current one has done a lot to reduce corruption and improve things. Tourists do get a slightly different approach, eg at checkpoint a tourist will get waved through where locals may get stopped but commit a crime and you'll face the same penalties as a local. We did a run out for supplies a couple of days ago and our permits were checked slightly less closely as the locals, but they were still checked.

Things aren't perfect, there are still corrupt police in places but not as bad as it was. You really wouldn't want to get locked up in a Moroccan prison though, unlike the cushy prisons in the UK prisons here are tough and do very well as a deterrent to criminals

The truth, straight from the horses mouth, nothing made up.

 

[goodoldboy]

No, its exactly the same for everyone here with the state of emergency. After 20+ years here I've got a lot of local friends, none of them have had any problems getting permits.

Things were different under the old King but the current one has done a lot to reduce corruption and improve things. Tourists do get a slightly different approach, eg at checkpoint a tourist will get waved through where locals may get stopped but commit a crime and you'll face the same penalties as a local. We did a run out for supplies a couple of days ago and our permits were checked slightly less closely as the locals, but they were still checked.

Things aren't perfect, there are still corrupt police in places but not as bad as it was. You really wouldn't want to get locked up in a Moroccan prison though, unlike the cushy prisons in the UK prisons here are tough and do very well as a deterrent to criminals

It would seem lots of the 100000 + folks locked up are political prisoners

World Report 2020: Rights Trends in Morocco/Western Sahara

While there remained some space to criticize the government in Morocco—provided that any harsh criticism avoided the monarchy and other “red lines”—authorities continued to selectively target, prosecute, jail, and harass critics, and enforce various repressive laws, notably pertaining to...

www.hrw.org

 

[MarkW]

As I said things aren't perfect, but not sure what a HRW report for 2019 has to do with Coronavirus issues

 

[goodoldboy]

but not sure what a HRW report for 2019 has to do with Coronavirus issues

everything.The success or failure of dealing with this virus will in part depend on the policies of governments , not just science or medicine.Those that choose to blame individuals breaking confinement or taking advantage of the crisis to increase their already repressive rule will inevitably cause more deaths.

 

[MarkW]

So far morocco has 4000 cases, 200 deaths, how's Spain doing? or the UK,USA etc. Morocco's decisive implementation of travel restrictions and enforcement of them is doing better that the more relaxed approach in the UK. Along with travel restrictions etc implemented early they safe guarded a supply of PPE and medicines produced in country by banning the export, set fixed price for face masks and also for hand sanitizer to avoid exploitation by people raising the prices and to ensure a population with low incomes can afford to purchase them

Nothing it that report has any bearing on the current enforcement of the State of Emergency here, theres been no blame on people breaching the rules spreading the virus or any increase in repression of the population.

Time will tell if its been successful or not but the Government here is already planning what happens after the restrictions while the UK Government hasn't even thought about it.

 

[goodoldboy]

So far morocco has 4000 cases, 200 deaths, how's Spain doing? or the UK,USA etc. Morocco's decisive implementation of travel restrictions and enforcement of them is doing better that the more relaxed approach in the UK. Along with travel restrictions etc implemented early they safe guarded a supply of PPE and medicines produced in country by banning the export, set fixed price for face masks and also for hand sanitizer to avoid exploitation by people raising the prices and to ensure a population with low incomes can afford to purchase them

Nothing it that report has any bearing on the current enforcement of the State of Emergency here, theres been no blame on people breaching the rules spreading the virus or any increase in repression of the population.

Time will tell if its been successful or not but the Government here is already planning what happens after the restrictions while the UK Government hasn't even thought about it.

It's early days yet with the pandemic in Morocco & the effectiveness of measures may in some part be due to the numbers who normally travel to the country although they acted quickly suspending flights - Spain has i think 85 million visitors a year - & probably the limited amount of international business travel.The initial Spanish response was poor , particularly allowing the Champions League match to go ahead with 1000s of fans travelling from northern Italy.
Is arresting people nececcary or efecctive with no blame being put on individuals for spreading the virus. These numbers sound pretty repressive to me . If it's so easy to obtain permits why aren't people bothering?
The report details serious & systematic abuses of human rights & any government that hands down a 20 year sentence to its critics for a Facebook post obviously cares more about it's own hold on power than the well being of it's citizens.
As you say time will tell & hopefully the virus won't take hold as it has in other countries.

 

[jibberjabber]

So far morocco has 4000 cases, 200 deaths, how's Spain doing? or the UK,USA etc. Morocco's decisive implementation of travel restrictions and enforcement of them is doing better that the more relaxed approach in the UK. Along with travel restrictions etc implemented early they safe guarded a supply of PPE and medicines produced in country by banning the export, set fixed price for face masks and also for hand sanitizer to avoid exploitation by people raising the prices and to ensure a population with low incomes can afford to purchase them

Nothing it that report has any bearing on the current enforcement of the State of Emergency here, theres been no blame on people breaching the rules spreading the virus or any increase in repression of the population.

Time will tell if its been successful or not but the Government here is already planning what happens after the restrictions while the UK Government hasn't even thought about it.

Again, no bull shit, I can't understand why anybody would argue with what is fact

 

[MarkW]

Is arresting people nececcary or efecctive with no blame being put on individuals for spreading the virus. These numbers sound pretty repressive to me . If it's so easy to obtain permits why aren't people bothering?
The report details serious & systematic abuses of human rights & any government that hands down a 20 year sentence to its critics for a Facebook post obviously cares more about it's own hold on power than the well being of it's citizens.

Its an effective way of enforcing the law, same as in any country, and certainly works to stop the idiots we see elsewhere ignoring the restrictions. Not sure where you get you information from regarding people not getting permits, people without them are very much in a minority. France also requires travel permits to move around are they repressing their population?.

HRW's report is quite one sided, for example the statement saying people detained alleged police brutality, well that's an allegation not a fact, they post no evidence that it actually happened or not. In Morocco criticism of the state and king is an offence, in the US (land of the "free") its an offence to burn the flag, as with anywhere don't do the crime of you can't do the time. The other overlooked fact is the age and maturity of Morocco as an independent state. At the turn of the century, the country was ravaged by tribal conflicts and bankruptcy with the government unable to maintain control, this resulted in the British agreeing to France taking control of the country and running it until 1956. The state has only run the country for 64 years independently and the reign of the last king was quite troubled with attempted Coups and unrest, severe repression and a sizable secret police. The current king has implemented huge changes to bring the country up to modern standards, cutting down on corruption, improving women's rights etc but theres still a long way to go.

Interesting that HRW's equivalent report for Spain highlights similar concerns, repression of opposing political views and police brutality, but unlike the Morocco report, the Spanish report has links to UN investigations and confirmation of the issues

 

[jibberjabber]

Its an effective way of enforcing the law, same as in any country, and certainly works to stop the idiots we see elsewhere ignoring the restrictions. Not sure where you get you information from regarding people not getting permits, people without them are very much in a minority. France also requires travel permits to move around are they repressing their population?.

HRW's report is quite one sided, for example the statement saying people detained alleged police brutality, well that's an allegation not a fact, they post no evidence that it actually happened or not. In Morocco criticism of the state and king is an offence, in the US (land of the "free") its an offence to burn the flag, as with anywhere don't do the crime of you can't do the time. The other overlooked fact is the age and maturity of Morocco as an independent state. At the turn of the century, the country was ravaged by tribal conflicts and bankruptcy with the government unable to maintain control, this resulted in the British agreeing to France taking control of the country and running it until 1956. The state has only run the country for 64 years independently and the reign of the last king was quite troubled with attempted Coups and unrest, severe repression and a sizable secret police. The current king has implemented huge changes to bring the country up to modern standards, cutting down on corruption, improving women's rights etc but theres still a long way to go.

Interesting that HRW's equivalent report for Spain highlights similar concerns, repression of opposing political views and police brutality, but unlike the Morocco report, the Spanish report has links to UN investigations and confirmation of the issues

Very good and understandable counter argument, to an argumentative anarchist statement.

 

[goodoldboy]

The stopping idiots logic leads to speed limiters & breathalyser devices fitted to cars.In Spain the Guardia Civil have said that in the present state of alert more than 95% of stops resulted in no action & the population were complying with the restrictions & generally taking things seriously. I thought i'd made my position clear but i'll say it again.Governments are trying to create a narrative that individuals , the idiots , are a serious danger & so everyone has to be controlled , to distract from their own failings.Shortages of PPE are still a major problem here & in the UK.Here , a meat packing plant that employs 1800 has become the source of a major outbreak with so far 25%of the workforce infected.Trades unions have been denouncing the systematic failures in regards to socal distancing & PPE for over a month but have been bounced around from H&S to health department repeatedly being told " not our problem" the photos & videos from inside the plant have gone viral .To worsen the situation anyone going on the sick has been sacked which has led to folks going in whilst having clear symptoms .The response from the authorities has been mostly silence apart from an announcement of increased police presence & more controls in the area.
Human rights abuses by their nature are difficult to prove & your criticisms of HRW are similar in tone to what was said about the forced confessions of the Birmingham 6 , the Guildford 4 , torture at Guantanamo & a long list of other well known cases. I'm well aware of the cases in Spain. As for the idea that we must obey a law however unjust , doing the time for committing the crime is something favoured by despotic regimes from Cuba , Iran , Saudi Arabia etc. Those that denounce their mistreatment under repressive regimes often put themselves at even greater risk so it's not something to be taken lightly.
The basic idea of government is that in exchange for being good citizens , doing as we're told , paying taxes etc. is that when things go wrong they protect us.In many countries they've failed & this has resulted in a lot of unnecessary deaths.The opportunity to use this crisis to clamp down on dissent is one that won't be wasted.
Controlling the "idiots" for the common good is great until those in charge decide that you're the idiot.Not sure who said it but "anyone willing to trade a little freedom for a little more security deserves neither"

 

[Shayne]

Human nature is a curious thing and the world has never faced anything quite like this before at least not with eyes wide open in full knowledge . How long might lock down have been effective in Britain had it been imposed when 10 people had been infected causing 5 fatalities ?

Reports of protests against lock down in America are gloatingly spread all over the tabloids but 50 states will see some hit worse than others . Germany appears to have done remarkably well in response to the virus but i believe there to people are protesting . Some part of Paris always seems to be on fire so its not worth discussing that and i know nothing of Morocco or Spain so i can't comment on either , but ..........

National identity , stereotypical prejudice if you like , does , will and must play a part in forward planning . While beating people with sticks might ensure establishment is obeyed in one corner of the world the very same would incite riots in another corner . Its not a competition and there is no right and wrong way to do something that has never been done before , because human nature is a funny thing .

Seems to me by accident or design Doris walked this tightrope between security and freedom really quite well , we can't "save the N.H.S" if there's no problem to see , but the way things worked out lock down became more or less a voluntary affair which sits comfortably with the mindset of this nation . If vilifying a few inconsiderate muppets keeps the peace for a few more weeks then it only helps .

The scale of this catastrophe makes it beyond the scope and competence of any government to exploit .