The people have spoken

[Rob Cowell]

This came through to me in an email today, I have no idea if it’s true/ correct etc, but thought I’d post it here!!

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

 

[Bob]

@Andy

That's been doing the rounds for a while. Some of the points are simply stating how things currently work within the EU framework anyway.

Some are blatantly false and used in between truths or half truths to scaremonger.

2 examples..
UK having to enter Schengen area.. that is simply untrue. Schengen (1995) and the EU coexist separately. Both Ireland and the UK did not sign up, and are fully within their rights to continue as so.

UK adopting the euro.. again, nope.. The EU would see it as a desirable target, but there will not be any obligation to give up Sterling.

Unlike the author of the original claims, I have read most of the Lisbon treaty.. (we held 2 referendums on it dontcha know)

Offering a fact based viewpoint

 

[MarkW]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Steady Rob, we know Brexiteers don’t like facts

 

[steverjuk]

This is why direct democracy isn’t a good idea, when people don’t even fact check.

 

[Shayne]

However "optional" is a mute point given the vast majority of Parliament are EU worshippers who have no interest in democracy .

 

[chadr]

However "optional" is a mute point given the vast majority of Parliament are EU worshippers who have no interest in democracy .

As far as I'm aware, every single MP currently sitting in the HoC was elected at the May 2017 general election or following a bye-election since. The majority of these MPs would have stated their personal preference, i.e. leave or remain, during canvassing for both the referendum and the general/bye election.

One of the main tenets of the Leave campaign was to regain Parliamentary Sovereignty. Well we certainly seem to have had it demonstrated in recent weeks, not that I ever doubted that we had lost it.

Ironically, it's the Brexiteers that are now complaining about it and want to trash it.

Add : Right on cue, I just read that the Government plans to prorogue Parliament next week. Seems Boris will do anything to avoid PMQs

 

[Shayne]

Since then we had the EU election at the time i believe both may and corbyn were insisting the referendum result must be honoured , the results suggest many who want out didn't believe them

I'm sure many who believe in Brexit , like me think the Brexit party would be a disaster for the country if put in power but they voted for it to be absolutely sure their main concern was addressed .

So question is how many of the lab/con 39 felt more optimistic than me that they would keep good on their promise to honor the referendum result ?

 

[Bob]

Has it not become abundantly clear that honouring the referendum result is not achievable... Not because of the EU, but the internal structures within the UK.. both geographical and political... 2 Prime ministers have tried, can't be done in my opinion.

Can't be done without crossing serious lines

 

[Rob Cowell]

Since then we had the EU election at the time i believe both may and corbyn were insisting the referendum result must be honoured , the results suggest many who want out didn't believe them

Not sure where you get your news to think Corbyn has ever insisted anything one way or the other on Brexit? Although if you do really believe that, he is much smarter than I give him credit for. Also not sure why you are showing a chart of 2014 results when talking about the 2019 election. At least I think you were talking about 2019?

The Labour manifesto for the 2019 EU election was to try and renegotiate a withdrawal agreement to include the customs union and " close single market alignment", whatever that means. They also opposed no deal. Nowhere in their manifesto did they say the referendum result must be honoured. The only time referendum is mentioned is to say they "believe" a renegotiated deal as vaguely specified "could bring our country back together and deliver on the result of the referendum".

http://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upl...itain-and-Europe-for-the-many-not-the-few.pdf

All irrelevant to our membership of the EU of course since MEPs are not part of our legislature. The whole parliament is sovereign thing that's been in the news recently. This is why people feel comfortable voting for a protest party, knowing it's just a protest.

 

[Shayne]

Fair play on the chart i used Rob it was just a quick find on google images intended to illustrate my point , so quick i didn't even notice it was BBC or i wouldn't have used it anyway .

As for Corbyn he is the most predictable muppet of them all , his policy is simply the opposite of whatever is presented by whoever he is opposition to . Give him a binary question such as red or blue and he will say red if the cons said blue , the same question put to him 5 minutes later because the lib dems said red he will say blue . He is like a spoilt child determined to ruin the birthday party hoping everyone will go home leaving all the cake for him .
Its hard to keep track of his waffling so maybe i mixed up when he said it https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance

Protest vote it may have been but 9 of 12 regions is hardly something to ignore because it gives clear indication of the nations true inclination or dare i say mood .

The ludicrous mess in parliament thats making Britain a laughing stock is not an internal affair what we are seeing is Britain trying to wrestle back control from EU employees who won't rock the boat because they are doing mighty fine while getting paid to do nothing and they really don't give a damn about anyone or anything outside of their cozy bubble.

 

[steverjuk]

Maybe changing your mind when you're provided with new evidence on an issue isn't a problem, I mean it seems most people have come to the conclusion that the only way out of Europe is a hard Brexit and to trash our economy.
I'm all for leaders changing their mind on an issue rather than being blinkered and hard-headed and just to do what they originally decided on when provided with new evidence. I think we can all agree that Britians leadership / Europe and the social identity have all changed since Brexit started and maybe just maybe we have a two-line referendum, hard Brexit or stay in Europe.
People who argue that if that's the case, we will never vote out, well isn't that democracy, rather than just pushing through your agenda.

 

[Rob Cowell]

As for Corbyn he is the most predictable muppet of them all , his policy is simply the opposite of whatever is presented by whoever he is opposition to .

I'm certainly not going to apologise for Corbyn, but an opposition leader who opposes is sort of his job. Possibly the reason it's been more obvious of late is that the government has had little or no majority.

Also if you want to really influence anything you have to be in power, and going along with the government of the day doesn't achieve that. Especially when the current government is doing a splendid job of destroying itself. There are people who criticised MPs for not backing another general election, but if you want power why would you do that now when your opposition weakens itself every day. Bide your time, give yourself a better chance.

There will be policies like the Domestic Abuse Bill currently being debated that will likely get a lot of common ground, but something like Brexit that clearly divides the country so much should have strong opposition; which is not to say I think Labour has been strong.

I agree the EU elections gave us an indication of the country's mood. 34 seats for BXP, CON, DUP. 38 seats for LIB, LAB, GREEN, SNP, PC, SF, APNI. The country's mood is just as split as it ever was. The balance might have tipped, and might not. 38 are all clear no no-deal parties. All but Labour are clear no Brexit parties. Labour are a better deal or another referendum party, but as you say, your guess is as good as mine on that one.

 

[Shayne]

The project that has already failed and continues only because the its propped up by unicorns and rainbows created by lawyers , we all know a lawyers moral worth .

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-view...ine-lagarde-she-has-a-big-task-ahead-11826739

Recession is inevitable so would you rather be in a big tent with a TV and all the other people when the hurricane hits or in a rather less comfortable dugout on your own .

 

[Rob Cowell]

The project that has already failed and continues only because the its propped up by unicorns and rainbows created by lawyers , we all know a lawyers moral worth .

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-view...ine-lagarde-she-has-a-big-task-ahead-11826739

Recession is inevitable so would you rather be in a big tent with a TV and all the other people when the hurricane hits or in a rather less comfortable dugout on your own .

We're not in that tent though. That's the Eurozone.

 

[Bob]

Been tracking events with my senior geography class.. this is what they have come up with on my wall...

 

[Shayne]

We're not in that tent though. That's the Eurozone.

And the eurozone gets its income from where ?

 

[Rob Cowell]

And the eurozone gets its income from where ?

Not sure what you mean by income? How do the governments of the members of the Eurozone pay for stuff? Taxation?

 

[Shayne]

We're not in that tent though. That's the Eurozone.

This seems to suggest its not our problem but the EU has no income other than that donated by member states .

Germany has said repeatedly it is not willing to bail out weaker economies when the recession hits so who is next in line to inflict suffering at home for the greater good of everywhere else .

 

[Shayne]

So under a jointly agreed total media blackout it is reported far and wide that Johnson has bowed to the mighty eu .

If Lord Haw Haw were alive today he would be publicly reporting troop , naval and RAF movements directly to Hitler so they could be slaughtered .

Divorce ok here's the deal , you can keep the house , the kids , the dogs , the cars , the holiday homes , the subsciptions to flower power planet magazine , keep everything . And good luck in finding a job to pay for it all .

I got a job so i will be fine goodbye .

 

[chadr]

So we have agreed a deal with the EU. Great.

By all accounts, it's even worse than the withdrawal agreement that Teresa May negotiated and was voted against by Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and other brexiteers and ERG members.

The DUP are still not supporting it - I suppose they might be holding off for another £1 billion payday.

You couldn't make this up, you really couldn't.