Workshop Rates

G

Guest

Guest
I am increasingly being asked to work on other peoples cars and it has
got to the point that I'm going to start charging for it. It's far
more fun than sitting in front of a computer and if it can pay for
more tools and goodies on the LC the better.
So, out of interest, what do you guys pay your local friendly
mechanics?
Initially I am just doing basic servicing, axle rebuilds etc, but will
do more when I can secure some workshop space [just been offered some
about 1/2 mile away] and get a lift put in.
I know dealers are charging anything from ?50 an hour upwards - does
?25-30 sound reasonable?
In the past I have done everything from servicing all the farm
equipment at home, rebuilding tractors, building rally cars including
doing all the engine rebuilds, etc so have a pretty good broad
experience.
What do you think?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
I am increasingly being asked to work on other peoples cars and it has
got to the point that I'm going to start charging for it. It's far
more fun than sitting in front of a computer and if it can pay for
more tools and goodies on the LC the better.
So, out of interest, what do you guys pay your local friendly
mechanics?
Initially I am just doing basic servicing, axle rebuilds etc, but will
do more when I can secure some workshop space [just been offered some
about 1/2 mile away] and get a lift put in.
I know dealers are charging anything from ?50 an hour upwards - does
?25-30 sound reasonable?
In the past I have done everything from servicing all the farm
equipment at home, rebuilding tractors, building rally cars including
doing all the engine rebuilds, etc so have a pretty good broad
experience.
What do you think?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian,
Most probably were you are that may be reasonable, but here I think you
would be twiddling your thumbs. It looks as though you already have a work
force of apprentices growing at home.
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 26 February 2005 19:08
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
I am increasingly being asked to work on other peoples cars and it has
got to the point that I'm going to start charging for it. It's far
more fun than sitting in front of a computer and if it can pay for
more tools and goodies on the LC the better.
So, out of interest, what do you guys pay your local friendly
mechanics?
Initially I am just doing basic servicing, axle rebuilds etc, but will
do more when I can secure some workshop space [just been offered some
about 1/2 mile away] and get a lift put in.
I know dealers are charging anything from =A350 an hour upwards - does
=A325-30 sound reasonable?
In the past I have done everything from servicing all the farm
equipment at home, rebuilding tractors, building rally cars including
doing all the engine rebuilds, etc so have a pretty good broad
experience.
What do you think?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Julian
Julian I know you have given this some thought before you posted this and
please do not think that I assume you did not think of this first. But If I
can give you some thing to think about after all the help you have given me
I will be happy, so here goes.
I think there are a number of things to concider firstl.
Insurance for yourself and your work, by that I mean if you get hurt or some
one else gets hurt on the premises.
Insurance to cover your liability in case some thing goes wrong with your
work, or is seen to have been your fault, could tie you up in court for a
long time.
Will your work be guarenteed by you and with the backing of an acreditied
organisation if things where to go wrong.
Once you extend you work beyond your close friends and family etc you will
run the risk of some one not being happy what back up will you have.
Check out what the risk would be and your liabilities against your home etc
should the worst happen.
I always tent to think of if things go wrong what is the worst that can
happen and to put provisions in place for that possibility, that way you
have hopfully thought of more angles .
You would also need to check out your legal obligations, ( the work you
carry out against what you are qualified to carry out)
I thing most people are alright once things go Ok for them but once thay
dont thay tent to like to blame some one else.
As I have said there is nothing new or anything you have probibily not
thought of but just in case please be careful
Myself I would love to have a guy like you near so that I could learn first
hand , like having a personal tution, but that is not going to happen.
I would advise you to air on the side of caution and not heart, because you
,your family and what you have built up are the most important things to
safe guard.
Sorry for being blunt but people will be people, even if you think your are
doing them a favour, everything will be fine untill some thing is percieved
to have gone amiss. I know I will now be banned for ever, so I might start
up my own list, WWNSALA (wish we knew something about landcruisers
asociation)
Food for thought
.
John C
92 HDJ 1HD-T Ireland
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Hi Anthony,
So what are the local rates around you?
Unfortunately Gloucestershire is getting very suburban and so the local
garage/mechanic market is changing a lot at the moment.
The two local garages that many used to use are closing - one is becoming
a Ford dealership and the other is moving 10miles down the road and is
putting prices up.
Of the two local mechanics that used to look after the local 4x4 market
(despite getting suburban around here there are still plenty of large
farming estates), one has moved to France and the other has moved abroad
as well.
I spend yesterday working on a couple of Troopers and have a reasonable
list of things to do on them over the coming months, but only if I charge
a sensible rate. If I can work out a reasonable rate the owners will
spread the word to the stacks of other people they know to spread the
word.
At the moment my primary work will be web stuff, but I am in the process
of developing a product that I will then look for resellers to sell for
me which should provide a regular income enabling me to do more workshop
stuff.
My ideal would be to keep the web stuff ticking over and then spend the
rest of my time doing workshop stuff and possibly specialising in things
like kitting LCs for overlanding trips - I know I could do a far better
job than the likes of Frogs Island!
We shall see.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARBs)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Anthony,
So what are the local rates around you?
Unfortunately Gloucestershire is getting very suburban and so the local
garage/mechanic market is changing a lot at the moment.
The two local garages that many used to use are closing - one is becoming
a Ford dealership and the other is moving 10miles down the road and is
putting prices up.
Of the two local mechanics that used to look after the local 4x4 market
(despite getting suburban around here there are still plenty of large
farming estates), one has moved to France and the other has moved abroad
as well.
I spend yesterday working on a couple of Troopers and have a reasonable
list of things to do on them over the coming months, but only if I charge
a sensible rate. If I can work out a reasonable rate the owners will
spread the word to the stacks of other people they know to spread the
word.
At the moment my primary work will be web stuff, but I am in the process
of developing a product that I will then look for resellers to sell for
me which should provide a regular income enabling me to do more workshop
stuff.
My ideal would be to keep the web stuff ticking over and then spend the
rest of my time doing workshop stuff and possibly specialising in things
like kitting LCs for overlanding trips - I know I could do a far better
job than the likes of Frogs Island!
We shall see.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARBs)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi John,
No problem, fire away.
I already have liability insurance for my web work, although it may need
extending slightly.
Yes it would be guaranteed by me and covered by the insurance. Usually this
will cover my time to rectify issues or the cost of bringing a 3rd party in to
do it.
The same as any other garage/mechanic. I will only ever tackle work that I
know that I can do. If I ever do get stuck I do know local experts in most
fields that can help out if stuck.
Covered.
There are currently no laws in place for mechanics insisting that they have to
be qualified to a particular standard.
More often than not the problems arise due to a lack of communication - the
client doesn't fully understand what the issues/problems are - some thing I
have never had a problem with.
Interestingly most of the issues you raise are identical to the sorts of issues
I have to deal with my web business. The main differences are that with the
web side of things I tend to be dealing with larger sums of money and a more
litigious market, but with workshop work you do have the greater risk of death
or injury so just have to act accordingly.
Fortunately I don't have to rely on it being the main source of income from the
outset so can build it up slowly without cutting corners which is when the
problems come in.
It is just an idea that I am toying with at the moment. Initially any income
will be ploughed back in to get more/better tools and then I will concentrate
on kitting out the LC. As I do so if I think that there is a market to produce
UK versions of products that many people are importing like a headlight wiring
loom upgrade, rear drawer system, winch/tyre carrier bumpers, etc then I will
produce and market them.
If I can do more in the LC market, I am pretty good at PR and think I should be
able to get some reasonable coverage in the 4x4 mags promoting the business as
well as the ELCO list at the same time.
Thanks again for the feedback.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi John,
No problem, fire away.
I already have liability insurance for my web work, although it may need
extending slightly.
Yes it would be guaranteed by me and covered by the insurance. Usually this
will cover my time to rectify issues or the cost of bringing a 3rd party in to
do it.
The same as any other garage/mechanic. I will only ever tackle work that I
know that I can do. If I ever do get stuck I do know local experts in most
fields that can help out if stuck.
Covered.
There are currently no laws in place for mechanics insisting that they have to
be qualified to a particular standard.
More often than not the problems arise due to a lack of communication - the
client doesn't fully understand what the issues/problems are - some thing I
have never had a problem with.
Interestingly most of the issues you raise are identical to the sorts of issues
I have to deal with my web business. The main differences are that with the
web side of things I tend to be dealing with larger sums of money and a more
litigious market, but with workshop work you do have the greater risk of death
or injury so just have to act accordingly.
Fortunately I don't have to rely on it being the main source of income from the
outset so can build it up slowly without cutting corners which is when the
problems come in.
It is just an idea that I am toying with at the moment. Initially any income
will be ploughed back in to get more/better tools and then I will concentrate
on kitting out the LC. As I do so if I think that there is a market to produce
UK versions of products that many people are importing like a headlight wiring
loom upgrade, rear drawer system, winch/tyre carrier bumpers, etc then I will
produce and market them.
If I can do more in the LC market, I am pretty good at PR and think I should be
able to get some reasonable coverage in the 4x4 mags promoting the business as
well as the ELCO list at the same time.
Thanks again for the feedback.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Julian,
We only charge =A325.00 inc vat (=A321.28 + vat) This is VERY cheap. But our workshop is about 5miles away, my mechanic works for BT as well as a bit for me, and we don't really push the fact we do work on vehicles. Although as a matter of fact we'd really like to do a lot more. Overland prep for starters. We've done loads of work on all sorts of overland vehicles so far. All big long jobs.
Anyway, I think you should charge about =A315. People will know you don't have public liability insurance etc, that's why you're cheap! But for that reason you are more likely to do a good job, you have to. And if you make a mistake you HAVE to sort it out and make the customer more than pleased.
I would think all of your customers will get to you through word of mouth, so they'll all know the score.
Be glad you can get the work, plenty of pocket money for you and your growing family. And don't earn too much or the tax man will be after you!
Very best regards,
Matt Savage
Derbyshire UK.
1991 HDJ80
V8 80" Landy
PS....Although, here in Derbyshire (plus further north) and in Wales things are different to you lot 'down south'. The north/south exchange rate means that =A310 here is only worth =A35 in London!! hummmmm... look at house prices etc...
----- Original Message -----
From: Julian Voelcker
To: [Email address removed]
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:07 PM
Subject: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
I am increasingly being asked to work on other peoples cars and it has got to the point that I'm going to start charging for it. It's far
more fun than sitting in front of a computer and if it can pay for
more tools and goodies on the LC the better.
So, out of interest, what do you guys pay your local friendly
mechanics?
Initially I am just doing basic servicing, axle rebuilds etc, but will do more when I can secure some workshop space [just been offered some
about 1/2 mile away] and get a lift put in.
I know dealers are charging anything from =A350 an hour upwards - does =A325-30 sound reasonable?
In the past I have done everything from servicing all the farm
equipment at home, rebuilding tractors, building rally cars including
doing all the engine rebuilds, etc so have a pretty good broad
experience.
What do you think?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
--
European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Julian,
Forget all that!! I've just read your other e-mail and I didn't realise you were going into it in a big way (advertising etc)
Right, I'm going to have breakfast now, then fix my sons quad bike and play in the mud for a few hours....
See y'all.
Matt Savage
Wet, muddy Derbyshire now all the snow has melted.... ahhhhh, the smell of mud on the exhaust, lovely....
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Savage Land Rover
To: [Email address removed]
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
Hi Julian,
We only charge =A325.00 inc vat (=A321.28 + vat) This is VERY cheap. But our workshop is about 5miles away, my mechanic works for BT as well as a bit for me, and we don't really push the fact we do work on vehicles. Although as a matter of fact we'd really like to do a lot more. Overland prep for starters. We've done loads of work on all sorts of overland vehicles so far. All big long jobs.
Anyway, I think you should charge about =A315. People will know you don't have public liability insurance etc, that's why you're cheap! But for that reason you are more likely to do a good job, you have to. And if you make a mistake you HAVE to sort it out and make the customer more than pleased.
I would think all of your customers will get to you through word of mouth, so they'll all know the score.
Be glad you can get the work, plenty of pocket money for you and your growing family. And don't earn too much or the tax man will be after you!
Very best regards,
Matt Savage
Derbyshire UK.
1991 HDJ80
V8 80" Landy
PS....Although, here in Derbyshire (plus further north) and in Wales things are different to you lot 'down south'. The north/south exchange rate means that =A310 here is only worth =A35 in London!! hummmmm... look at house prices etc...

----- Original Message -----
From: Julian Voelcker
To: [Email address removed]
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:07 PM
Subject: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
I am increasingly being asked to work on other peoples cars and it has
got to the point that I'm going to start charging for it. It's far
more fun than sitting in front of a computer and if it can pay for
more tools and goodies on the LC the better.
So, out of interest, what do you guys pay your local friendly
mechanics?
Initially I am just doing basic servicing, axle rebuilds etc, but will
do more when I can secure some workshop space [just been offered some
about 1/2 mile away] and get a lift put in.
I know dealers are charging anything from =A350 an hour upwards - does
=A325-30 sound reasonable?
In the past I have done everything from servicing all the farm
equipment at home, rebuilding tractors, building rally cars including
doing all the engine rebuilds, etc so have a pretty good broad
experience.
What do you think?
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
--
European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
 
G

Guest

Guest
Good morning Julian,
Charging by garages is a bit of a Black Art, some garages look up a job in a
Mechanics Bible and this give the time taken for a set job and then apply an
hourly rate for that, the Bible also has other indications in it. Other
garages charge for the actual time taken. Others just charge twice what
ever figure that first comes into there mind. What usually amazes me about
garages is that if a mistake is made by them which makes for a more
difficult and time consuming job then you get charged for that as well and
for breakages along the way. Some even have a hidden tax in the way of
relieving your tank of excess fuel!
Main dealers charge exorbitantly for the dubious privilege of having there
stamp on it but then that seems to hold a recognized standard of approval by
a lot of folks, an independent can't usually offer that even if the work is
at a higher standard. A one man show can not expect initially to charge as
much as either, first a reputation has to be built by quality and some sort
of warranty and also people tend to go to single operators for cost reasons,
if you charged a rate approaching the two other examples mentioned earlier
then why would they go to a single operator who may take longer to complete
a given job and who may not have a courtesy car if the job takes along time.
I think that John from the Emerald Isle hit on some thing else, the higher
up market you strive for then other implications start to come about,
liability insurance is the first that comes to mind then health and safety
issues taking on more staff to cover ever increasing work loads etc.
Starting of small has advantages but usually a lower rate than the local
competition may be the initial way forward.
Of course you will have SPECIAL LOW RATES FOR ELCO MEMBERS especially those
from WALES.
HA HA
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 27 February 2005 08:22
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
Hi Anthony,
So what are the local rates around you?
Unfortunately Gloucestershire is getting very suburban and so the local
garage/mechanic market is changing a lot at the moment.
The two local garages that many used to use are closing - one is becoming
a Ford dealership and the other is moving 10miles down the road and is
putting prices up.
Of the two local mechanics that used to look after the local 4x4 market
(despite getting suburban around here there are still plenty of large
farming estates), one has moved to France and the other has moved abroad
as well.
I spend yesterday working on a couple of Troopers and have a reasonable
list of things to do on them over the coming months, but only if I charge
a sensible rate. If I can work out a reasonable rate the owners will
spread the word to the stacks of other people they know to spread the
word.
At the moment my primary work will be web stuff, but I am in the process
of developing a product that I will then look for resellers to sell for
me which should provide a regular income enabling me to do more workshop
stuff.
My ideal would be to keep the web stuff ticking over and then spend the
rest of my time doing workshop stuff and possibly specialising in things
like kitting LCs for overlanding trips - I know I could do a far better
job than the likes of Frogs Island!
We shall see.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARBs)
 
G

Guest

Guest
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:05:31 -0000, Anthony Graham
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
Naaa... Special rate for Elco members and FOC for those from Wales
(with a cottage in N Wales I do qualify, don't I) :))
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Roman,
Tell me were your cottage is in Wales and I will let you know but maybe that
only qualifies for 1/2 a discount. What is FOC or should I not ask?
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 27 February 2005 11:59
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:05:31 -0000, Anthony Graham
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
Naaa... Special rate for Elco members and FOC for those from Wales
(with a cottage in N Wales I do qualify, don't I) :))
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Err free of charge...
I MUST qualify with a name like Llewellyn-Jones..
On 27/2/05 13:11, "Anthony Graham" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
--
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Anthony,
I take on board what you are saying - it is much the same as any service
industry and has many close similarities to what I do with web work.
There are so many factors affecting price, which is why I was interested to
know what you guys were paying.
This is exactly the same as with web work. I usually work on the basis of
estimating how long it would normally take and then provide an hourly rate.
If the job is likely to take longer (like un-seizing calipers when changing
pads) then I usually advise how much extra time it will take. Usually I would
advise that before even starting a job so the customer is aware of the costs
from the very outset - as you know it is not nice being given a quote for one
job that then ends up taking 3 times as long.
Normally if the job takes longer than quoted then I swallow that cost.
Obviously over time the quoting gets easier as one gets more experienced.
Breaking this down a bit - I suppose that I am aiming for below dealer price
and local independent, but don't want to go in too low and then find I have to
put prices up as overheads increase.
Initially I won't be VAT registered so will just pass on part costs directly
and overheads will be low. But if/when the business expands and I need to
take someone on or go VAT registered, I don't want to scare off customers when
the prices go up.
I suppose a key thing locally is that there is a gap in the market with no
other one man bands and only a handful of independents. On that basis as long
as I am cheaper than them then I am in with a chance as long as I can build
the reputation.
So going back to my original question, what do you guys pay?
Naturally.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Anthony,
I take on board what you are saying - it is much the same as any service
industry and has many close similarities to what I do with web work.
There are so many factors affecting price, which is why I was interested to
know what you guys were paying.
This is exactly the same as with web work. I usually work on the basis of
estimating how long it would normally take and then provide an hourly rate.
If the job is likely to take longer (like un-seizing calipers when changing
pads) then I usually advise how much extra time it will take. Usually I would
advise that before even starting a job so the customer is aware of the costs
from the very outset - as you know it is not nice being given a quote for one
job that then ends up taking 3 times as long.
Normally if the job takes longer than quoted then I swallow that cost.
Obviously over time the quoting gets easier as one gets more experienced.
Breaking this down a bit - I suppose that I am aiming for below dealer price
and local independent, but don't want to go in too low and then find I have to
put prices up as overheads increase.
Initially I won't be VAT registered so will just pass on part costs directly
and overheads will be low. But if/when the business expands and I need to
take someone on or go VAT registered, I don't want to scare off customers when
the prices go up.
I suppose a key thing locally is that there is a gap in the market with no
other one man bands and only a handful of independents. On that basis as long
as I am cheaper than them then I am in with a chance as long as I can build
the reputation.
So going back to my original question, what do you guys pay?
Naturally.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Anthony,
It's the deepest Snowdonia - eight miles from Bewts-y-Coed.
Jeremy,
If you hail from N Wales, you're in for 100%. S Wales gets 50% off :))
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:00:42 +0000, Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Phew! My father was from Ffestiniog. As for me, well I have to confess to
being born and brought up in... Kenya.
jeremy
On 27/2/05 17:44, "Roman" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
--
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Julian and the rest of the guys.
Im sorry I could not be of any help to you Julian but I knew you knew your
stuff and I think I will stick to what maybe I do best ask questions and not
try to answer them. I told you lot its not good when I think because then I
actually think that I might know something about the cruisers AH WELL tis
life. And theres poor Renate thinking she has nothing to contribute on the
tenhnical issues, look at me girl and then tell yourself he knows less than
me Yahoo. Any way enough slaging meself again, instead of a discount cause
im the only Irish member I am, am I not and I do live nearly close to wales,
I reacon that maybe I could get private tuition so I would'nt feel like a
real gob dah all the time. ONE DAY, ONE DAY, I will know something, oops the
wife just told me to stop talking crap again bye.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HD-T Ireland
 
G

Guest

Guest
Roman,
I know that region very well I did a lot of mountaineering and rock climbing
from the late sixties on I know that Tanygrisiaunear Bleanau Ffestiniog was
once known as the wettest place in Wales and one of the wettest in the UK.
I have a sister living in the Conway valley. So maybe our paths have
crossed at some time. As I am not in South Wales perhaps I qualify for a
higher %.
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 27 February 2005 17:45
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Workshop Rates
Anthony,
It's the deepest Snowdonia - eight miles from Bewts-y-Coed.
Jeremy,
If you hail from N Wales, you're in for 100%. S Wales gets 50% off :))
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:00:42 +0000, Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
<[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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