Wheeler Dealers - Expedition Discovery

[froggy Steve]

It will just be for 'playing with' down at the range - no way good enough for competitions at the moment - trouble is unless you make your own, you are restricted to 1000 rounds a year - but to be honest, the number of times I get to the range, that should be plenty. I must find out if I can have a 1000 of each .38wc and .357 fmj? going tomorrow morning so might find someone who knows.

 

[Chris]

Steve the .38 - .357 round is a bit of a daft one. Essentially the measurement of one is across the grooves of the barrel and the other is across the lands. So regardless of what CARTRIDGE you put in, these are the inner and outer dimensions of the same barrel. You can get a pistol chambered ONLY for .38 which will not take the longer .357 rounds but yes, all .357 pistols will take shorter .38 special. .357 obviously have a bit more power than the 38 variants. Of which there are several such as .38 Plus P. .38 is a very dependable round with good energy and high accuracy Wheel guns are very reliable too and usually easier to shoot for a novice. Most are double action as well which means you can pull the trigger which winds back the hammer and then shoots or you can cock the hammer manually and just pull lightly to shoot. I had lots of each, revolvers and semi autos. Without doubt semis autos like my Beretta were far sexier to look at, great to shoot but in relation to being a tool, revolvers are more reliable. Autos are reliable too of course but are at the mercy of the ammunition you put in them. Revolvers will shoot ANYTHING. In the UK, in relation to made up rounds, 38 and 357 are counted as being separate. But bullets in a box aren't.

Just got back from the range, came second in our annual memorial shoot. Dropped 6 points off 150. Not bad I thought. Winner dropped 3.

 

[froggy Steve]

you can tell I'm a novice! Last shot (.303) hundreds of years ago at Bisley in a Cadet comp. Came 2nd overall. Apart from a few hundred clays thats it until last year when the bug got me again! I bought a .22 LR rim fire rifle after joining the local club, and seeing the guys with black powder weapons, high power hunting rifles, pistols and revolvers, I thought a revolver would be the way forward for me, well to start with! This Taurus took my fancy..
Great result btw!

 

[Chris]

Nothing wrong with Taurus. I prefer the S&W myself. Colt were good too. Looks nice but the stainless ones are much easier to clean and keep nice.

Thanks quite pleased. That was prone, kneeling and standing.

 

[froggy Steve]

Should pick up my new permit tomorrow - got to get it signed by my Doctor and get him to sign a 'he isnt a fruit cake' certificate, and wait for the prefecture to contact the Gendarmerie to make sure I am not a robber/crim, and my gun cabinet is OK, and I have the correct number of stamps from the club etc etc, and I should get the OK for holding a 'B' class weapon!

 

[kamaangir]

I was in France this week and picked up a gun mag and was surprised at the amount of semi auto's and stuff for sale. How does it work if you apply for a permit can you buy any semi auto pistol or rifle?

 

[moggy1968]

Problem is that terminal ballistics just isn't an exact science. Ballistics is. Gravity, mass, velocity yadda yadda. But impact? You can put loads of work into how a bullet is supposed to behave, but there are so many variables when you take the shot that you can really only express the outcome in terms of averages. I have shot (and killed) a lot of things and could I describe a typical impact? Not really. I have shot stags with a 7mm that had almost no signs of impact, entry or exit. I mean plop, dropped on the spot at 200m still with a mouthful of grass. But inside was soup. I've shot other animals that ran on, but when recovered where almost cut in two. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are, you cannot account for what happens when the bullet strikes. So really to a degree what the GC or more accurately as Moggy say the Hague convention requires is frankly pretty random. It's not the strike that counts it's the intent. Dum Dum though really is not a phrase recognised by people who shoot. It was the name of an ammunition manufacturing facility near Calcutta where the .303 British was produced. It sort of passed into folk law as it were. You have hollow point, spire point, round nosed, full metal jacket, boat tail, wad cutter, semi jacketed and many more. No one anywhere in any shape or configuration sells a Dum Dum. It was a case of "Those new bullets from Dum Dum" Rather then "These new Dum Dum bullets" I'm afraid. I have records but couldn't possibly count the number of rounds I have loaded but it runs in the tens of thousands; I used to shoot between 200 and 300 hundred rounds per week at one point. You can produce a consistent point of impact but after that the bullet really does what it wants. Here's a group shot at 100 meters. approx a 20p piece. There are 15 rounds in there. Where they went after that is anyone's guess.

View attachment 15359

Interesting that, I remember years ago when I used to shoot .303 Lee enfields and brens (also in the cadets) being told a .303 round was basically a dum dum because it was hollow pointed, so that stuff you said about the factory makes it all fall into place a bit better. Very true what you say about the route of a round, A lot of the research on designing a round is done firing into ballistics gel filmed on a high speed camera, but I guess for development you need consistency and repeatability. In the real world you can get an exit wound the size of your fist sometimes, whilst another time from the same round it's mm across, once you find it, one guy got shot in the shoulder and it came out through his foot! All depends what it hits on the way through (or even immediately before), and then, as you say, all the ballistics theory goes out the window!

Never shot anything live and don't really want to but I used to enjoy going on the range. loved my old issue browning and would have bought one if the Government hadn't gone all hysterical about it. Got marksman on that and the SMG but always struggled a bit on the rifle with standard sights due to crap eyes!

Did a few competitions, used to like confusing the judges in the section events by being the LSW gunner!
'So, who's your section LSW man'
'Err, the Captain over there'
'what, the nurse?!'
'Yup, that's the one'

the smirks soon stopped though when I beat some of the infantry guys!

 

[froggy Steve]

To own a shotgun needs no License - however to buy ammo, you have to belong to a shooting club or the hunt. Like wise for .22LR rifle, you have to be a member of a shooting club (no hunting with .22LR here - not even bunnies!) If you are a hunter and have passed your test in both safety (joke) and written (multi choice) exam, which is quite hard btw you can then go out and hunt with your shotgun - Deer, Boar, ducks, anything else really! When you move on to high power rifles and semi Auto pistols you have to get permission from the prefecture to buy and posses such a weapon (class B) - this includes a signed doc certificate and permit and proof that you have shot at the club 4 times in one 12m period, also the club have to give you a green paper that says you are competent, not a fruit cake etc. Its not that difficult to get one. However, lots of people are killed (usually hunters) during the season as Moonshine and guns dont mix! They really are crap shots it has to be said.

 

[kamaangir]

I'm moving to France!!

 

[froggy Steve]

We often get the Gendarmes visit the club on a Sunday morning - not to do any checking or anything, they come down for a coffee and to play with the members weapons ! (ooeer misses!) Last time I went they was a pretty 'little' Gendarmett (made up name) who shot a members black powder pistol and it 'surprised' her how powerful it was - the Gendarmes have a massive range and shooting facility a few miles away where just about every weapon known to man is there! - Working on my contacts to go and have a play one evening

 

[Graham]

you can tell I'm a novice! Last shot (.303) hundreds of years ago at Bisley in a Cadet comp. Came 2nd overall. Apart from a few hundred clays thats it until last year when the bug got me again! I bought a .22 LR rim fire rifle after joining the local club, and seeing the guys with black powder weapons, high power hunting rifles, pistols and revolvers, I thought a revolver would be the way forward for me, well to start with! This Taurus took my fancy..
Great result btw!

.
Had one of them Taurus in Cape Town.
As a member of Ottery gun club, I fired off zillions of rounds.
The fault I found with the Taurus, was the barrel alignment spring&pin. (Aligns the revolving barrel with the bore)
They eventually parted company with the gun.
Obviously couldn't use it anymore, so one day, took it to several gun shops in Cape Town.
None of them were (or could) prepared to sort it out for me.
Made in South America am I right, was a few years ago now.
The range was hand guns only, and I think it was 20 meters max,

Gra

 

[stumog]

I am always suprised how inaccurate hand guns are compated to what you see in the films.

I shot a 357 mag wincester underleaver rifle last time i shot and that was shocking. I am a ok kind of shot and i could barely hit the A3 target at 25yards. I was doing better with a hand gun at the same distance.


My first time hunting was with a. 375 h&h that is like setting off a rocket.
Stu

 

[Chris]

Stu, what you see in the films with regard to anything firearms wise is utter *****. So don't worry about that. Superb accuracy is achievable in any firearm and any calibre but not without considerable effort. And some skill. And a degree of luck. And a following wind.

 

[kamaangir]

Most hand guns are capable of accuracy beyond the capabilities of the shooters firing them. Its just hard to shoot them accurately due to shorter sight radius, only having 2 points of contact with pistols (as opposed to rifles/shotguns with shoulder stock) and having to compensate for a more pronounced curve in trajectory (bullet drop) in longer ranges.

Couple of guys on youtube who make vids and consistently shoot handguns out to 80 yards and beyond. Check any pistol review by Hickok 45.

Here is a guy doing a long range with a snubby:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk&list=UUhk5eyAGuO3J4rV-CiMNkNQ

 

[Shayne]

I ain't owned a gun since i was 16 but i couldn't shoot for shit with my 410 shotgun if i put the stock to my shoulder and aimed down the barrel yet if i fired from the hip i rarely missed my target . Had a play once with a mates semi auto handgun and found trying to balance it and sight down the barrel meant i'd miss so i tried just pointing and shooting without pause and found i got consistently more accurate .

 

[moggy1968]

I ain't owned a gun since i was 16 but i couldn't shoot for shit with my 410 shotgun if i put the stock to my shoulder and aimed down the barrel yet if i fired from the hip i rarely missed my target . Had a play once with a mates semi auto handgun and found trying to balance it and sight down the barrel meant i'd miss so i tried just pointing and shooting without pause and found i got consistently more accurate .

thats a good natural eye, think too hard and you can't do it, just cuff it and it works
means you have a natural ability, just needs to be trained!