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12volt start battery question

With respect, whilst your calculations are correct IF the 12 volt starter was 4.5kw however they are not.

The 12 volt unit for standard 80 is IIRC 2.5Kw i.e. 208.3 A

I use the 12 volt unit from the 100 series and this is 3.0Kw so 250 A

Note that Toyota reverted to the norm of 12 volt starting with the 100 using the same engine configuration as the 80, soooo........(Dave throws some more fuel on the fire :whistle:)

regards

Dave

If this is true then that is probably the main reason why the engine cranks over quicker and starts almost instantaneously on 24V. A starter of almost twice the power rating must make a big difference. JMO
 
But that isn't just 24v start though is it. Most lorries are 24v all the way through. I don't know why that is.

I just can't see where 24v is Better. Better than what? I am not saying 12v is better at starting, just that it's less components and on a vehicle that you wouldn't want to be stuck in, every bit of help in that direction is useful. Look at staring problems when they occur,. You can't deny that so many of them are attributable to one battery going down. Look at the Winter pack on the 90/95 series. That's caused more problems that it resolved. People retro fit two batteries to some models because they think it's a benefit because Toyota did it. all the time people are taking it out!

They fit AHC to the 100 series and people take it out. Why? Reliability. But they must have put that in for a reason - so it should be left alone?

Again you just cannot deny that the 100 series went back to only one battery. So why was that then and why aren't 100 series owners retro fitting 24v start? If you had a vehicle that was inherently harder to start and took some real cranking, maybe like military and commercial vehicles, 24v is better. But the 80 starts like a dream every single time. I've had 4 80s and they have been identical in this respect. When I turn the key in the grey one, it never even crosses my mind that it's 12v. One flick and it's running.

I have not seen anyone who's gone to 12v saying they wish they hadn't.
 
I might be wrong but didn't Clive post elsewhere that he has 1 battery?

No, not me.

Still have the original 2 battery set-up, 24V start, and until something goes wrong with it, it will stay that way.

I can't see any cons to having a 12V start though, it's cold here in the winter admittedly, it dipped to -23C for a short while over New Year, but I can't justify spending out to change something that's working perfectly, I don't need the battery space, or anything, I'm no overlander...
 
I've just turned to a 12volt system. The engine turns over ever so slightly slower than with the 24volt system but starts on first compression.

Isn't it the power of the starter that determines how quickly it turns over? 24 volts mean nothing with no amps.

Also I don't think comparing an 80 engine with a 100 engine is realistic. The 100 engine is similar to the 80 engine but all the internal components and ancillary components are different.

Do any of the 12 volt 80's have glow plugs? Perhaps Toyota thought they could do away with these with a 24volt start as with a diesel it is the heat on compression that generates the combustion on start up. Quicker cranking means easier starting therefore.
 
The voltage drop over distance is not acceptable on military and commercial vehicles and the engines may need more powerful starters. The older members on here (well as old as me, hmmmm I might be alone here...sob) will remember the 6 volt Volkswagen with the dull lights? Hence for the cabling distance on a typical vehicle 12v is sufficient. Re 24v on commercials, many moons ago it was normal to park HGV's at the side of the road and leave the lights on all night, the added capacity allowed for that as well as provide bright lighting over the 60 odd feet of cabling.

As mentioned, having one battery will not crank as long as two, and without doubt the 24v system allows for usage of a more powerful starter. I would also add that battery life in harsh environments should be better with the 24v system as there is less degradation during each cranking cycle. IMO the 12v system is not for everyone and you should look at your personal usage before making any decisions. There are pros and cons to both systems choose what suits you,

regards

Dave
 
No, not me.

Still have the original 2 battery set-up, 24V start, and until something goes wrong with it, it will stay that way.

I can't see any cons to having a 12V start though, it's cold here in the winter admittedly, it dipped to -23C for a short while over New Year, but I can't justify spending out to change something that's working perfectly, I don't need the battery space, or anything, I'm no overlander...

That's what lack of sleep does to the brain lol.
 
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I've just turned to a 12volt system. The engine turns over ever so slightly slower than with the 24volt system but starts on first compression.

Isn't it the power of the starter that determines how quickly it turns over? 24 volts mean nothing with no amps.

Also I don't think comparing an 80 engine with a 100 engine is realistic. The 100 engine is similar to the 80 engine but all the internal components and ancillary components are different.

Do any of the 12 volt 80's have glow plugs? Perhaps Toyota thought they could do away with these with a 24volt start as with a diesel it is the heat on compression that generates the combustion on start up. Quicker cranking means easier starting therefore.

The 80 has glow plugs but as a direct injection engine they are not needed in typical temperatures as you see in the UK. Re the 80/100 engines you will IIRC that the compression ratio is similar, apart from component weight difference if any it will take similar effort to crank it given similar oil weight etc.

As you said Frank the engine catches on first turn, not really enough to create that much heat difference, the 24v got the heater matrix that is in the inlet manifold with the poor relay rating under the battery.

My thoughts on all of this is what we were talking about waaaaaay back, Toyota wanted a vehicle to give Land Rover a kick up the ar*e.

With the 24v starting for colder climates, glow plugs, cold start fuel timing, fuel heater in the filter head, differential locks as standard, rear heating, as so on, IMO they did a great job.

All we are doing now with the batteries/suspension/intercoolers/wheels and tyres/headlights and dare I say..........cup holders, is altering the OE offering to our individual needs and tastes, the key word here is individual.

regards

Dave
 
I agree with Dave here and for my guess, the military use of 24v is to standardise across all vehicles be they trucks, tanks, Lawn Rovers, Dukws …well you get the picture. No need to think about what battery charger does what or what radio set fits where (probably allows for more powerful ones too) and just keeps everything simple.

As for the 80, if it works and starts, why change it. If you have a good reason to change it then you'll change it, and all will be well. You will, however, have less reserve in the 12v battery as the parallel batteries will give extra capacity. Probably not a problem unless you leave your lights on. If there is a con to the 24v system it would be that batteries in parallel CAN discharge one another if one gets a fault, and yes, the changeover relay could potentially fail. Perhaps that would be on the list as a prep for over landing, change the relay?
 
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If 12v is 'better', why are military and heavy commercial vehicles almost universally 24v?
If you go up in size, requiring a more powerful starter, or longer cables, the voltage drop starts making trouble. You have only half the voltage drop on 24 V as on 12 V at the same power rating, or only a 1/4 in %%.
The voltage drop also increases with length of the cable, so on bigger vehicles you need higher voltage, or some ingenuity when it comes to placing power hungry parts.
For the military, standardisation is king. That way the G-wagen can bring jumper cables out to the 6x6 truck.
Some earlier LCs were 100% 24V as well, the diesel 60-series.
 
I changed to a 12volt start because I've twice been stuck on the drive with the 24volt system when one of the batteries has failed. I therefore carried one in the back in case it happened when away from home. Now I have just the one battery with a spare under the bonnet. I alternate between the two. I don't need to keep a 3rd in the back now. Real pain having to keep that one charged. I now have a spare starter which I keep in the back. Easy change if the 12volt starter packs up away from home.
 
hi guys,,,this is my life as many of you may know. 2 batteries is better than one fact. you can argue about pros and cons about running 2 batteries 12 volt system or 2 batteries as 24 volt system forever, and on Landcruisers as long as you still have two batteries there will be little difference you will notice

As for CCA on batteries take it with a pinch of salt and it should not be what you base your purchase on as it is often crap.

Varta have higher CCA than Hankook/Alphaline but they are nowhere near as reliable. This is because Korean batteries are not made with recycled lead. Varta when it was owned by BMW used virgin lead but since it was taken over by its current USA owners they now trade on the reputation of the brand and have lowered their production cost by using recycled lead. Funny old world we see their failure rates increase 4 times.

We sell all top brand< Varta, Hyundai, Hankook/Alphaline, Yuasa, Exide. and the only thing i will fit on anything i own its Hankook/Alphaline

Giles
 
I love my 12v starting - no different to the way it started as a 24v

I did it for reliability and to get a leasure battery without making place at the back - win/win I added a split charge system and Bob's your auntry:dance:
 
hi guys,,,this is my life as many of you may know. 2 batteries is better than one fact. you can argue about pros and cons about running 2 batteries 12 volt system or 2 batteries as 24 volt system forever, and on Landcruisers as long as you still have two batteries there will be little difference you will notice

As for CCA on batteries take it with a pinch of salt and it should not be what you base your purchase on as it is often crap.

Varta have higher CCA than Hankook/Alphaline but they are nowhere near as reliable. This is because Korean batteries are not made with recycled lead. Varta when it was owned by BMW used virgin lead but since it was taken over by its current USA owners they now trade on the reputation of the brand and have lowered their production cost by using recycled lead. Funny old world we see their failure rates increase 4 times.

We sell all top brand< Varta, Hyundai, Hankook/Alphaline, Yuasa, Exide. and the only thing i will fit on anything i own its Hankook/Alphaline

Giles

If the 12v starter is genuinely just over half the power rating of it's 24v counterpart then one could argue that you have more in reserve with 2 batteries on a 12v setup but, as has already been said, with the batteries in parallel, if one goes flat then then it'll flatten the other.

That's interesting about the Varta batteries. I've always used Varta on previous vehicles including some bikes. In fact I've just changed the Varta's on the LC, which were on when I bought it in May'05, after they started dropping their charge if the car wasn't used for several days. Don't know how old they were when I bought it. In all that time they never let me down, the only starting issue I had was when they were flattened to within an inch of their lives due to a wiring fault draining them while the car as parked up. They recovered well after a lengthy charge. I'd never buy anything else personally. I see from a bit of Googling that Varta was sold to the US Co. on 2002 so I guess it's possible the old Varta's on mine were from 'German' stock. In fact the first thing the guy at the battery shop said when he saw them was "God, they're old batteries". Either way, almost 10 years use is bloody good by anybody's standards. JMO
 
Re the battery quality posts, IIRC the change of ownership of Optima a few years back also resulted in a battery of low quality, this lead (no pun intended) to the inevitable threads about how many members had an Optima for 8 years or more and no problem and another group complaining of a failure after only 2 or 3 years. We (the public) get led down a path and genuinely believe we are purchasing the best or at least are getting good value for money, only to be shafted later on by a profit margin.

I purchased the Alphaline's three years ago (checked the invoice 14/02/12) and they have had more than their fair share of abuse, many know the vehicle was left standing, the batteries went flat and were recharged and put back on only to eventually be flattened again and recharged but are still working fine, heat here kills batteries and three years for a typical 'replacement' battery life is about right, OE offerings on new cars seem to last 5 -6 years. I would not have the cheek to call on the warranty if one of the Alphaline's packed up next week, for the price I would simply order another two.

Interesting note about the Varta batteries, one of the local supermarkets have started selling them and they are not cheap, the same supermarket recently got a kicking for selling Chinese crap domestic goods and making huge profits on the back of it. If there is a correlation between this and their new battery range has yet to be seen, I hope loyal customers such as Towpack get their money's worth but, in this day and age where the customer is getting fleeced by brand names.......

regards

Dave
 
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hi guys,,,this is my life as many of you may know. 2 batteries is better than one fact. you can argue about pros and cons about running 2 batteries 12 volt system or 2 batteries as 24 volt system forever, and on Landcruisers as long as you still have two batteries there will be little difference you will notice. As for CCA on batteries take it with a pinch of salt and it should not be what you base your purchase on as it is often crap. Varta have higher CCA than Hankook/Alphaline but they are nowhere near as reliable. This is because Korean batteries are not made with recycled lead. Varta when it was owned by BMW used virgin lead but since it was taken over by its current USA owners they now trade on the reputation of the brand and have lowered their production cost by using recycled lead. Funny old world we see their failure rates increase 4 times. We sell all top brand< Varta, Hyundai, Hankook/Alphaline, Yuasa, Exide. and the only thing i will fit on anything i own its Hankook/Alphaline Giles

Whilst I have no comment on your experience Giles, I accept it's your business and livelihood and what you know about auto batteries is probably second to none.

However, I would take issue with the criticism that the use of recycled lead is the root of all evil in the Auto Battery industry.

A short commentary from the International Lead Association may speak for itself:

Lead enjoys one of the highest recycling rates of all materials in common use today. This is a result of its fundamental properties, good design and the ways in which it is used, which make lead based products easily identifiable and economic to collect and recycle. As a result, over half of the lead produced and used each year throughout the world has been used before in other products. What is more, because lead is a naturally occurring element, the quality of the recycled lead is identical to that of primary metal from mining.
The use of lead has evolved over the years, with a significant growth in recyclable uses. Today about 80% of lead is used in lead acid batteries, all of which are recoverable and recyclable. Some countries boast a 100% recycling rate – and most others share the possibility of 100% recyclability.
A further 6% of lead is used in the form of lead sheet by the building industry. Together with a number of other smaller volume metallic applications such as radiation shielding, cable sheathing and various specialised applications, such as earthquake dampers, this means that about 90% of all lead is used in readily recyclable products – and almost all of it is recycled – conserving precious ore reserves for future generations.
Lead recycling brings advantages to industry and society in areas such as energy consumption, reduced carbon emissions, resource conservation, employment and costs. For instance, the recycling of used lead products requires only about one third of the energy needed to produce lead from its ores, resulting in major energy savings and fewer carbon emissions. It’s therefore not surprising that recycling is a very attractive option for everyone, and a valuable contribution to sustainability.

I suppose there will be an element of "well they would say that wouldn't they" but as an element it stands to reason that lead is lead. We all breathe recycled oxygen in the air and drink recycled water, it doesn't mean that it's in any way inferior as a consequence. JMO.
 
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Lead is Lead. PB for short and it's an element so it's either Pb or something else e.g. another chemical or mixture. The "virgin lead" is not lead when it comes out of the ground but a chemical which has to be treated to produce lead. If the quality of the recycling is good 100% lead can be obtained. My 2004 100 batteries lasted 9 years BTW.
 
Lead is Lead. PB for short and it's an element so it's either Pb or something else e.g. another chemical or mixture. The "virgin lead" is not lead when it comes out of the ground but a chemical which has to be treated to produce lead. If the quality of the recycling is good 100% lead can be obtained. My 2004 100 batteries lasted 9 years BTW.

That supports my point Frank. "bad" lead is not lead, whether its virgin or recycled.

I bought some very cheap Romanian-made batteries for the 80, the company does not have a good reputation. However, they lasted 8 years and I could have squeezed another 2 out of them, with some hassles, I'm sure.

I have had a pair of Vartas on it for the last 18 months, with no worries.

We'll see.
 
Hi Chaps

Lead is lead,,,its the other stuff in recycled lead that causes a problem. Enersys and North Star batteries go one step further than virgin lead and use pure lead and they will take two years to sell discharge,,,your Varta battery will be more like 6 weeks.

Saying lead is lead is like saying steel is steel, or aluminium is aluminium. You don`t make Tungsten steel from recycled monkey metal and you don`t make international space station from coke cans.

yes you can get recycled metal to a very high grade in theory but this would costs more than the virgin material,,so ask your self who would buy it???? manufactures use recycled lead to save themselves money no other reason,,if the returns increase but the profits increase more then they are happy.

No manufacture uses recycled lead in building product for these battery sectors industrial, Ups , telecom batteries

Giles
 
This paper is interesting, in support of what you say Giles.

It all seems to be a matter of purity.... :angelic-whiteflyin: :angelic-cyan:
 
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