Battery Drain.

[Olazz]

Guys, I have had a problem with the batteries on the truck slowly running down over a period of weeks and couldn't figure out why, as I have done nothing new and this seems to be more of problem over the last few months.

I finally decided to learn how to check if there is a battery drain. I'm a complete when it come to electrickery, so after a few attempts I finally got what I think were the right readings on the 20ma scale of the voltmeter.

The reading with ignition off and all doors closed started at 2.8ma , and kept on creeping up the scale to 7.12ma. The longer I held the probes to the battery the higher the number climbed.

I eventually traced the drain to the Magcharger torch I have hard wired into the truck (been there for 2 years now) and on removing the fuse, the readings fell to 0.9ma, but then again the readings kept on creeping up to settle around 3.2ma. This is where the numbers stay, even if I remove all of the fuses in the cab and under bonnet.
if I then open the door the number jumps to 6+ma

The only other thing I can think of is a pirañha alarm fitted with a red LED flasher in the cab.

Is this normal?
Shouldn't the numbers be under 1

Anyone able to advise?

 

[Crispin]

I would not leave the charger hard-wired. Even when a battery is full it will always draw a bit. Reconnect it to an ignition line (cig lighter feed is always handy) so it'll charge when the engine is running. Should be more than enough.

Seems dumb but are you able to disconnect the alarm? Would rule out straight away if that is the problem. 0.9mA is fine, 3.2 does not sound unreasonable for an alarm. I can't remember what the 120 was but it was very low(er) when armed. having a quick look on the net seems they range from 15mA downwards.

get one of these : http://www.maplin.co.uk/automotive-curr ... ter-217879
Very handy unit. You pull out a fuse and replace it with that and it see what the draw is. Makes life a bit easier than the other way.

Also note that in winter a lead-acid battery self discharges from the cold and just "because". A couple of weeks should not be a problem though. Months maybe.
How new are the batteries? could they be near end of life?

 

[Olazz]

CP,

I've pulled the MagCharger out and I'll run it off the Luna pac plug.
That looks like a great piece of kit from Maplins thanks I'll get one and see what's what.

Batteries are 9 months old Optima yellows, so should be in very good nick.

Shouldn't the draw be under 1ma when all off?

 

[Crispin]

I guess it should be. Trying to find the thread where I measured the 120.

Would be best to get the gadget and see what is what. is the NL box disconnected during all this?

A note on that device, there is one for big fuses and small fuses. If you have a mix of fuses then you'll need one of each (more toys...)

 

[Gary Stockton]

£6.99 from Maplin ... Fits all voltmeters, apparently !

 

[Crispin]

£6.99 from Maplin ... Fits all voltmeters, apparently !

I assume you mean this: http://www.maplin.co.uk/car-fuse-adapto ... set-217881
?

Yes, that is an option too. The other one is easier for the, erm, "other people"

 

[Julian Voelcker]

Checking the current draw across fuses is good, but no substitute for measuring the draw at the battery end and then slowly pulling fuses in the cab and under the bonnet.

Start by checking the draw of any 3rd party wiring on the batteries, strip those away and then with just the standard factory wiring in place start pulling fuses.

Be aware people quite often tap into main ignition power.

Usual culprit for power draw are things like alarms, car radios, etc

 

[Olazz]

Yep the NL pac is disconnected... already made that mistake once.... killed the old batteries hence the Optimas!

Don't have any mini fuses so one will do...

Even though I fall so readily into the "other people" category, I've got a meter already, so why not just buy the leads.
Thanks Doliy, good call chap.

Now there must be a BOZO's guide to car electrics in the London area, so I can attend and learn something....

Anyone know of one?

CP how about doing an half day course.. happy to host at my place and put on braai + beers.

 

[Crispin]

If you want to use the leads with the meter, that's fine. No difference really.

Won't say no to braai and beers in exchange for help. Might want to limit beers though or there'll be a fire... hick.

 

[Andrew Prince]

Nice idea with the workshop, L There must be some experts/sparkies in the club that can enlighten us - not that that would take a huge degree of knowledge to teach me anything

 

[Crispin]

Not saying I know it all (enough to be dangerous) but if we wanted a get together and a "here's what I know / how I would do it" then that sounds like a plan.

If there is someone who does this for a living then they might be better placed than I

 

[Olazz]

Thanks JV,

Will go through that process over weekend and see. I know its def not the Radio as I've done the fuse on that and no difference.

There is def something draining the batteries though; I don't have too many electrical gadgets wired into the batteries so it can't be that difficult to find... I'll persevere

 

[Olazz]

Not saying I know it all (enough to be dangerous) but if we wanted a get together and a "here's what I know / how I would do it" then that sounds like a plan.

If there is someone who does this for a living then they might be better placed than I

Ok well as your the main manne, why not do a general invitation to the London mob who want to learn about car electrics and we can make a plan at my place.

Edit.... PS my 7"ers arrived today too!

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

Guys, I have had a problem with the batteries on the truck slowly running down over a period of weeks and couldn't figure out why, as I have done nothing new and this seems to be more of problem over the last few months.

Are we talking run down to the point it won't turn over, or just lower voltage / slower starter than you feel it should be? The drain figures you've mentioned are very small and shouldn't have much effect on a pair of healthy batteries for months. Either something is wrong with your batteries, the charging of them, or the drain is much higher than you have measured so far.

How are you charging the batteries? If they are not well charged to begin with they don't have much to give back and will seem to discharge quickly.

 

[Graham]

Guys, I have had a problem with the batteries on the truck slowly running down over a period of weeks and couldn't figure out why, as I have done nothing new and this seems to be more of problem over the last few months.

I finally decided to learn how to check if there is a battery drain. I'm a complete when it come to electrickery, so after a few attempts I finally got what I think were the right readings on the 20ma scale of the voltmeter.

The reading with ignition off and all doors closed started at 2.8ma , and kept on creeping up the scale to 7.12ma. The longer I held the probes to the battery the higher the number climbed.

I eventually traced the drain to the Magcharger torch I have hard wired into the truck (been there for 2 years now) and on removing the fuse, the readings fell to 0.9ma, but then again the readings kept on creeping up to settle around 3.2ma. This is where the numbers stay, even if I remove all of the fuses in the cab and under bonnet.if I then open the door the number jumps to 6+ma

The only other thing I can think of is a pirañha alarm fitted with a red LED flasher in the cab.

Is this normal?
Shouldn't the numbers be under 1

Anyone able to advise?

.
Hi Olazz,
3,2mA is here nor there for the pair of batteries in your truck.

Either,
1/ you are not reading the meter correctly, ie undereading, wrong scale, wrong connections into meter, AC reading instead of DC reading
2/ your batteries, new or not, are fubbard.

Guessing your truck has 2 main batteries?
Completely disconnect, and insulate both leads of one of the batteries, I don't know if there is a preference battery in your Cruiser, maybe left side or right side, or maybe it doesn't matter.
Any way, if there is a preference, then totally disconnect the other one, leaving the preference battery.
Now with doors shut, ignition off, key out, disconnect the negative from the remaining battery.
Try the highest DC AMPS, probably 10 Amp scale reading first.
Connect the positive lead of the test meter to the negative pole of the battery, and the negative lead of the test meter to a good known earth.

So it's like this,,,,,,,,, negative lead of the meter to the truck good shiny metal earth, positive of the test meter to the negative pole on the battery.

What reading do you get?
You may need to start dropping down the scales if your current draw is very low.

The drain that you are saying 3,2mA would not affect healthy batteries for a good few months, and I am guessing 3 months and still start your Cruiser.

I would expect your Optima yellow top batteries would be in good condition, but don't count on it.

A few years ago, yellowtop batteries were all in the news in USA because of substantial failures.
Essentially, I only became aware of it, as my Corvette was fitted with a yellowtop, otherwise, I would have had no interest.

So what I am saying is, don't count on the yellowtops being a perfect battery, they are not.
Really, they in my opinion they are no better than a conventional lead acid for general use, even off road use.
Sure the conventional lead acid has been around for a long time, and the yellowtop, dry (damp paste) is a relative new comer to the automotive scene.

Perhaps before you get all hung up on looking for a fault on the truck, I would suggest you try to find a kind land Cruiser owner in your local area, and perhaps, swap batteries for a while.
Try to find some one who has a small newish reliable car for daily run about, and their Land Cruiser is just parked up some where.
Ask nicely, and see.

You may be surprised to find the borrowed replaced batteries, while still leaking 3,2mA will be fine for months, and still start your Cruiser.

All batteries self discharge, all batteries hate cold weather, so a combination of self discharge and cold, PLUS in your case, already fubbard batteries, then no wonder the batteries have no power left.

Now,,,,,,, Can you find any one reasonably local, who you can borrow two batteries off?
I would say this is your way forward.

Gra.

 

[Julian Voelcker]

Will go through that process over weekend and see. I know its def not the Radio as I've done the fuse on that and no difference.

Be aware that many radios have two feeds, one is the main power feed that is usually switched with the ignition and then there is a second feed to power the memory for all the station presets, etc. Whilst both will most likely be fused at the back of the unit the permanent live is often not fused.

 

[MuckyPup]

A couple of questions, please answer carefully because I do actually do this as a day job.

1. Have the Optima's ever actually been fully charged OFF THE CAR ?
As in charged fully using a proper (preferably intelligent) charger.

2. Are they really both YELLOW optima's ? Why have you fitted Yellow's ? What was your reasoning ?

 

[Olazz]

1. Have the Optima's ever actually been fully charged OFF THE CAR ?
As in charged fully using a proper (preferably intelligent) charger.
2. Are they really both YELLOW optima's ? Why have you fitted Yellow's ? What was your reasoning ?

1. Yes on 2 separate occasions using an intelligent charger

2. Yes all 3 are Yellow tops. I wanted batteries that could handle the possibility of regular deep discharge and still be useable.

 

[MuckyPup]

You've got problems then.
A milliamp drain, even 3.2mA is the square root of sod all. I've seen more than that from batteries with a damp casing.

Three thoughts;
1. One or more faulty yellow tops
2. Faulty split charging system (you said 3 batteries)
3. Faulty charging system leading to 1. or 2. above.

The rumours about yellow tops are sort of true but that isn't the whole story.
The truth of it is, (and i really don't care what this makes you think of me)
Yellow tops are crap SLI batteries
They're not bad as far as cranking amps go for a traction battery but daily use as an SLI will kill it in pretty short order.
Better to winch / fridge with a red top than run a yellow top daily, ideally you have both or in my opinion neither.
I'm thinking you may also have a charging problem / split charging problem or operating style problem which is bringing this to light so soon, or just a duff yellow top.

First thing you need to do is disconnect everything extra including the second battery and go back to basics with just one battery, then check resting volts, cranking volts and charging volts and go from there.
Dead easy, step by step diagnostics with a £9.99 maplin meter

The hard part is getting warranty on the yellow tops without a friendly dealer.
Drop testers won't work and the intelligent digital testers are only a guide. I've got both types of intelligent tester and i still have to refer suspect optima's to the supplier and their £6k tester which takes 24hrs.

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

2. Yes all 3 are Yellow tops. I wanted batteries that could handle the possibility of regular deep discharge and still be useable.

If two yellow tops that run the car are squeezed in on one battery tray as is often done you may find one is aging much faster than the other due to being exposed to more heat and is constantly discharging the good one.