Broken wheel stud

[Rob]

Took the 80 to a tyre place to finally get that slow puncture fixed and it just turned into a real PITA. First place I went to did not want anything to do with it as it was too heavy (they had 3 ton jacks), the next place said that they could not balance it as the centre bore is too large (rubbish IMO) and the third place I went to was "too busy". Finally found one place that would do it but I had to wait 1 hour to be served.

So after waiting for an hour I was told that they did not have the right plugs for this sort of tyre and the repair cannot be guaranteed Was not happy but thought I may as well try it seeing I had already waited for over an hour. So they fixed the puncture and as they were finishing the bloke brought a broken wheel stud into the reception. I heard them using a impact wrench just before he came in and when I asked he said he was using a torque wrench set to 120 (no mention of units). Anyway took one look at the stud and it seemed to be a fatigue fracture so no point arguing too much. But they immediately washed their hands of it by claiming that the wheels are not the correct ones for the car, the wheels are in poor condition, the wheel nuts are in poor condition and it's a 4 wheel drive so they are not claiming responsibility for it. And just before then they bought a perfectly good brake disc out to show to a customer why it needed replacing Certainly not going back there again.

Anyway rant over. So seeing as it was a fatigue related failure should I just replace one or all 6 or replace all 12 on the front (it came off a front hub). Also any point in replacing the nuts? Looks like I will be replacing at least the nut that came off as it looks a bit knackered.

Now with Lincomb next weekend I may not have enough time to get it sorted before I go, so any opinions on whether I should drive to Lincomb with only 5 studs? Could do a hub rebuild demo if someone is interested only if it is possible to hammer the old studs out.

 

[Chas]

whether I should drive to Lincomb with only 5 studs?

5 Studs?

I once drove my first 80 home with only two studs, very slowly I might add and not too far. No you'll be fine Rob. I wouldn't attempt Rubie hill though.
My problem was a rattle gun mechanic overdoing it and when I had a puncture on the A3 I broke two studs trying to remove the wheel, so I thought I'd give the RAC a go, he broke two more studs before the wheel came off so I had about a 5 mile drive home with just two studs holding the wheel on.

 

[Chris]

I built up a spare hub this afternoon in preparation for the weekend. The studs went in fine. Just pulled in with a wheel nut. I have my wheels on and off so often that I am careful with the way I treat the studs. Always make sure they're clean and any binding at all I run the thread restorer down them and the nuts too. I have always found the the studs on these come out quite easily. Now of course I am running spacers, so the wheel studs don't get quite as much hammer as they are holding the spacer on not the wheel.

I will have 54mm sockets etc with me if you need to change one there.

Chris

 

[Lorin]

Rob, I can't recall where I read it but remember reading on one of the overlanding sites about a loaded 80 breaking two studs when changing a wheel due to a puncture and having to drive for a couple of days on bad roads before being able to get the studs replaced. I don't reckon one stud missing is anything to worry about in terms of getting to Lincomb. I'd be more than happy to lend a hand doing a hub rebuild.

 

[Rob]

Chris when you say they come out easily, do you mean you hit them with a 2 lb copper faced hammer and they come out or is there more to it?

Will post on the Lincomb thread to see if anyone is interested in a quick how to demonstration. Get the feeling I could do this with my eyes closed but the wheel studs are one of the very few items that I have not removed on the front axle.

After reading people's experiences i am tempted to do all 12 studs. Milners or Toyota?

 

[stumog]

Rob all you should need is to beat out with a bid hammer and pull a new one in with a impact gun. i wouldnt worry until you get back i will take my impact with me if you want. do you have the new stud yet? Should take lond to do mate.

 

[frank rabbets]

On all the cars I've had over the last 40 years I've always used plenty of grease on the wheel nuts or bolts as on Audi. I've only ever used a 13 inch bar and socket and never had a loose wheel nut or brocken stud.

Frank

 

[Rob]

Don't have a new stud yet, just sent a couple of emails to check availability and costs compared to Milners.

Frank I will post a pic tomorrow. This is clearly a fatigue failure so even if they were gentle with it, it would have failed eventually. Now what initiated the fatigue cracking is a completely different story, and I suspect it may have something to do with the turck's use on bad roads, gritty studs and the hanging on the end of a 4 foot scaffold pole years ago to get them off hence I would like to replace all of them.

 

[clivehorridge]

On all the cars I've had over the last 40 years I've always used plenty of grease on the wheel nuts or bolts as on Audi. I've only ever used a 13 inch bar and socket and never had a loose wheel nut or brocken stud.

Frank

Me too (except I've never owned an Audi ) but some grease and normal tightening is the way. This winding them up till they almost break is bloody dangerous IMO, the studs are stressed to their limit before you start loading them with driving.

Most advice is don't use grease, but I've never had a wheel come loose since my first car in 1970.

 

[Towpack]

I heard them using a impact wrench just before he came in and when I asked he said he was using a torque wrench set to 120 (no mention of units).

If it was 120nm that's about right (spec says 123 or 90lb/ft). If it was lb/ft that's overtightened by 30%. Not good practice obviously but on the positive side it alerted you to the weakened stud!
Always use copper slip on my studs/nuts, never grease.

 

[Chris]

Rob I'm sure that between us we have spare genuine studs.

Didn't we learn on a previous thread that greasing your studs leads to over tightening? I don't grease mine I just wire brush then and keep them clean? Not saying don't just that we had some discussion about some paper or other that looked at the effects of greasing threads.
As for copper slip arrrrgh work of the devil. Exhaust components only!

It gets everywhere. But people like it.

Chris

 

[Wandering Aengus]

I've driven a couple of hundred kilometeres in my old Hilux Surf on bad roads on 3 studs, only realised I was down a few when I stopped to investigate a strange wobble when turning a corner. Three studs were sheared and two of the others nuts had fallen off leaving me with only one good nut & stud combo.I suspect someone had robbed a couple of nuts the previous night in the town I was staying.

 

[Roger Fairclough]

If it was 120nm that's about right (spec says 123 or 90lb/ft). If it was lb/ft that's overtightened by 30%. Not good practice obviously but on the positive side it alerted you to the weakened stud!
Always use copper slip on my studs/nuts, never grease.

Tyre mechanics are paid to do the job quickly. Ostensibly the fitting service is free and free labour is always suspect. Windy guns have one power to undo and usually three to tighten. They should use power one to tighten in a sequence that evens out the loading and centralises the wheel/hub. This takes time, so they use level three in a circular sequence. Then they use a t/wrench and it will obligingly click immediately. Job done and client is satisfied--well he saw a t/wrench in use and heard the click.

Roger

 

[frank rabbets]

The Toyota wheel wrench in the tool kit is presumably fit for purpose and it is not calibrated so there is quite a margin for error. If nuts or bolts rust on then one might have to exceed their torque capacity to release whereas if they are greased they will come undone at roughly the same torque as they were tightened with.

The audi manual said "do not use grease on the wheel bolts". So I did.

Lots of bolts we torque are assembled with oil eg bigend bolts. They don't say "degrease first".

Frank

 

[yogi]

The Toyota wheel wrench in the tool kit is presumably fit for purpose and it is not calibrated so there is quite a margin for error. If nuts or bolts rust on then one might have to exceed their torque capacity to release whereas if they are greased they will come undone at roughly the same torque as they were tightened with.

The audi manual said "do not use grease on the wheel bolts". So I did.

Lots of bolts we torque are assembled with oil eg bigend bolts. They don't say "degrease first".

Frank

Have to fully agree, I always grease wheel nuts/studs when I change a wheel, I have read on here that you change wheels regularly Chris, but I have found that wheels that are very rarely removed such as those on trailers on the farm (and wheels on second cars/low mileage vehicles) really have to be greased otherwise the force required with a breaker bar is possibly going to break them when they are basically seized in place. I can definitely say I have broken more studs trying to get the bolts off than on, broke three last winter on one wheel on a 2wd David Brown tractor trying to get a front one off!! f As regards tyre places and air guns, I think they are a kiss of death, any time I have ever tried to get a wheel off after its been far too tight, I have a very handy 6 size wheel brace I made up years ago I used always keep in the car/truck as it fitted virtually any wheel I came across, now I carry a selection of sockets and an 18 inch homemade breaker bar because the wheel brace can't get the air gun tightened nuts off without a lot of sweat, and i'm a hardy 6ft 13 1/2 stone farmer in his mid thirties who thinks nothing lately of carrying a 1/2cwt bag of meal a1/4 mile up a hill because he has no grass!! I would hate to try to get some of them off with the fre wheel brace in most cars if I was 65 or a girl!!

 

[clivehorridge]

Tyre mechanics are paid to do the job quickly. Ostensibly the fitting service is free and free labour is always suspect. Windy guns have one power to undo and usually three to tighten. They should use power one to tighten in a sequence that evens out the loading and centralises the wheel/hub. This takes time, so they use level three in a circular sequence. Then they use a t/wrench and it will obligingly click immediately. Job done and client is satisfied--well he saw a t/wrench in use and heard the click.

Roger

Tend to agree with Roger that the mechanics are whipping through as many customers as possible to get their quota/bonus and there are few that show any pride in their work. The gun is there and it's quick. My local (who I consider reasonably good having been to worse) always use the air torque, never a wrench. It's just zip and there you go. But using grease, although tight, I can move them with the Mr. T wrench with about a foot of steel gas pipe extra leverage. I never use the extra leverage putting them on but always seem to need it getting them off. Does that mean they self tighten?

And, it can't be forgotten that these guys would be fired on the spot if customer lost a wheel after their service, better to wang it up to 150 ft/lbs than risk a wheel coming off. IMO there's never a need for a stud to break with proper use. 6 studs is overdesigned, 5 is plenty, four always used to be enough in the old days, Reault have liked 3 for about 50 years, what are we worrying about?

 

[Gary Stockton]

but I wouldn't really like to put all that weight and torque on just 3 studs out in the boonies somewhere!


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[clivehorridge]

but I wouldn't really like to put all that weight and torque on just 3 studs out in the boonies somewhere!


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True enough...

 

[Roger Fairclough]

I check that the threads, male and female, are clean and undamaged. Then I spray a waterproof grease inside the nut and refit. The grease stops the onset of rust and the nut locks onto the wheel itself. This is the part that seemingly self tightens. The interaction between these contact points, which are basically small, creates huge locking forces that prevent the nut from loosening.When you tighten the nut against the wheel, you create friction which creates heat which helps to set the nut into place. When you try to remove the nut, now cold, you have to overcome stiction and that tries to prevent the nut from undoing. If you break a stud, I would suggest that the nut and stud were probably rusted together. If the nut and stud are "normal", the process of undoing the nut should only be about breaking this stiction, just so long as the threads on the nut/stud are lubricated.

Roger

 

[frank rabbets]

About 20 years ago there was a big national fuss over tyre places overtightening nuts causing motorists to be stranded when they could not get their wheels off. Also there were reports of safety issues due to broken studs. The tyre suppliers association must have sprung into action because suddenly they all had torque wrenches. So has this now fallen away? The quality of goods and services fall under Trading Standards so if wheel nuts are being overtightened this ought to be reported. Also they must be breaking some sort of safety law. After all we are in Brussels. They ought to be brought to book.

I always use "Herbies Mobile Tyres". No problem,good bloke and unbeatable prices so far. Would never go to a tyre place.

Frank