Engine hard to start, then starts and dies 5mins later, then wont start, Help!

[MisterCruiser]

As in the title, Im having trouble with my 1997 Colorado 1kz-Te engine. It has been getting harder to start the last while with longer cranking needed, but now when it does start it dies after about 4mins when the engine starts to shudder and then cuts out itself with white/grey smoke out the exhaust. Is this a fuel starvation issue?

Its recently got a new fuel filter and air filter, but the issue was there before this service. Had no problem starting it immediately after fitting the new filter.

The injection pump has been weeping a few months, I suspect the pump is the cause, but is there anything I can check or should check before I go and remove the pump to be reconditioned.

Thanks

 

[Trevor]

White/grey smoke could be unburnt fuel or something else. Might be worth doing a compression check on each cylinder to begin with, maybe check the glow plugs too?

 

[MisterCruiser]

White/grey smoke could be unburnt fuel or something else. Might be worth doing a compression check on each cylinder to begin with, maybe check the glow plugs too?

Cheers for the suggestions, I should have said, I already checked all the glowplugs for continuity with my multimeter and removed 1 of them to test it directly on my battery and they were ok. When i press the primer bulb on top of the fuel filter I can hear and see a slight leak of fuel at a blanking plate on the side of the injection pump. The plate is broken a little where the bolt goes through it, its being like this for months so would this really cause the engine to cut out now? I took a pic of this plate but am having trouble uploading it, ill post it tomorrow. I dont think compression is an issue, the jeep had been driving fine once started up until now. I think its definitely fuel related.


Got the pics working, heres the blanking plate thats leaking/weeping



Here you can see the bit broken off around the bolt

 

[mrdelmonti]

If there's a fuel leak, air can and will get in the system which cause it to miss, shudder and die on the cylinder the air leak is on. Eventually.

If there's air getting in there then it's possible its getting sucked into all four cylinders, hence it cutting out.

 

[Big Wigg]

If there's a fuel leak, air can and will get in the system which cause it to miss, shudder and die on the cylinder the air leak is on. Eventually.

CAVEAT! These are my humble opinions based on the info supplied so far.
I would second that but as everything in the pump is under such high pressure, air is only likely to enter when the engine is stopped. This could make for the poor starting. Once the engine has been cranking for a while the pressure would be back up, air displaced and vrooom! However that doesn’t explain why it cuts out after 5 minutes or so.
I've had something similar many years ago. Vehicle starts no problem and runs perfectly for a few minutes under load then dies. In all cases it was a completely blocked fuel filter but as you've changed that already, the fuel tank pickup in the tank could be blocked or partially blocked. I've seen some pictures of pretty bad fuel tank pickups on the web ... (how sad am I?) and if that is OK, there are another 3 filters (I think but don't quote me on it) on the pump side which would be worth checking. Simple and no cost to check B4 removing the diesel pump and all that entails.
Regards from sunny France
Cameron

 

[grantw]

As Cameron said. But also check your fuel cap is letting air in. If you take it off after it has stalled is the tank under vacuum?

 

[tim falce]

Forget doing compression tests, glow plug tests etc, if it starts then the glow plugs will be OK. Your problem will most likely be the broken plate and it's sucking in air somewhere. Another problem could be a blocked pick up or split pipe in or near the tank.

 

[MisterCruiser]

Forget doing compression tests, glow plug tests etc, if it starts then the glow plugs will be OK. Your problem will most likely be the broken plate and it's sucking in air somewhere. Another problem could be a blocked pick up or split pipe in or near the tank.

I agree with you, I dont see how glow plugs could effect it, and the jeep was fine so compression tests is jumping the gun a bit. Ive been looking at it again, and as I keep pumping the primer bulb on the filter housing, theres a constant drip of fuel from under that blanking plate.

Ive bought a pump repair kit that another menber linked to in my other thread which has a load of o-rings but I dont see a gasket in the set that would fit that blanking plate, typical! Although, the ebay add does state theres other gaskets included and not pictured.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1KZ-TE-Die...item233b0da27c

Does anyone know whats behind that blanking plate? If I take it off is anything going to fall out like a spring Ill never find again, I might just try and remove the plate and reseal it, what ye reckon?

 

[MisterCruiser]

I done some searching and found thread of a pump overhaul with pics. Theres a spring behind the blanking plate which is what I was afraid of. It could be difficult to keep that spring assembley in place whilst resealing the blank. Anyone know what that spring section is from the pics below.

Forget doing compression tests, glow plug tests etc, if it starts then the glow plugs will be OK. Your problem will most likely be the broken plate and it's sucking in air somewhere. Another problem could be a blocked pick up or split pipe in or near the tank.

I agree with you, I dont see how glow plugs could effect it, and the jeep was fine so compression tests is jumping the gun a bit. Ive been looking at it again, and as I keep pumping the primer bulb on the filter housing, theres a constant drip of fuel from under that blanking plate. Is this a diy fix and do ye think it can be done without removing the pump? Cheers

 

[Shayne]

My attitude here would be "you can't break something that's already broke" I would whip it off and clean it up using a wire brush in a drill which leaves a key for a good dollop of Araldite to adhere to . That will ensure the alloy itself cannot leek and looking at the pic there is no gasket under that cover it is sealed by the the O-ring pictured .

 

[Tractionman]

Agree with other suggestions here with air in system, if diesel can get out air can get in - to rule out pick up or fuel line blockages, remove supply pipe to pump and hold towards container underneath then get some one to crank engine vigorously. you should see if the flow is constant or spits and farts.
You will have to bleed the system after, but if you take that plate off you will have to anyway, so you are not losing anything in that respect.
Good luck!
John

 

[MisterCruiser]

My attitude here would be "you can't break something that's already broke" I would whip it off and clean it up using a wire brush in a drill which leaves a key for a good dollop of Araldite to adhere to . That will ensure the alloy itself cannot leek and looking at the pic there is no gasket under that cover it is sealed by the the O-ring pictured .

I see theres no gasket on that 2nd pic allright and the o-ring seals it, but on the pic of my actual pump you can see a gasket, so someone muct have been working on this pump before or tried to stop this exact leak before with their own gasket which has now failed. Also, from looking under the plate with a mirror I think Ill need a new blanking plate too, could prove difficult trying to buy a new plate on its own or even a 2nd hand one.

 

[MisterCruiser]

Agree with other suggestions here with air in system, if diesel can get out air can get in - to rule out pick up or fuel line blockages, remove supply pipe to pump and hold towards container underneath then get some one to crank engine vigorously. you should see if the flow is constant or spits and farts.
You will have to bleed the system after, but if you take that plate off you will have to anyway, so you are not losing anything in that respect.
Good luck!
John

I'd like to try that, is the supply pipe to the pump the pipe that goes from the filter down to the pump? But if I disconnect that supply hose at the pump and turn the engine over does that not mean the pump will be pumping as normal with no diesel or will the couple of minutes not matter?

 

[Tractionman]

apologies, forget that, it will not work - a senior moment doh!

 

[MisterCruiser]

apologies, forget that, it will not work - a senior moment doh!

Ahh, no problem dude, thanks for the suggestion though. I think what would work though to rule out the tank pick-up and fuel lines from the tank to the pump would be if I disconnect the supply feed to the pump and add a long hose onto the pump and the other end in a jerrycan of diesel. If it runs fine then it would mean theres a blockage/air leak further back from the pump?

Can anyone tell me which pipe is the fuel supply to the pump? Is it the hose from the filter to the connection on the very front of the pump circled in BLUE in my picture below?
Also, can someone tell me what the conenctions I have circled in red and green are in the pic below, is red a return and green the feed to the injectors?

 

[jbecks]

the one you circled in blue is the feed and the red/green is the return line.

 

[Shayne]

I see theres no gasket on that 2nd pic allright and the o-ring seals it, but on the pic of my actual pump you can see a gasket, so someone muct have been working on this pump before or tried to stop this exact leak before with their own gasket which has now failed. Also, from looking under the plate with a mirror I think Ill need a new blanking plate too, could prove difficult trying to buy a new plate on its own or even a 2nd hand one.

That plate has actually been broken and someone has welded it together again , i've seen this attempted many a time on motorbike engine casings but it rarely works because casing alloy can be any of a huge variation of metals . Thats why i said wire brush and coat it with araldite (which is stronger than the alloy) that will seal any pin hole in the welded bit should there be any . Then if someone tried to stop the leak by using a gasket it means the face of the plate isn't flat so put a sheet of fine emery cloth on something that is definitely flat (i used to use a mirror) and polish the face until your happy it will sit flat against the o-ring .

 

[MisterCruiser]

Good spot, it does look to have been welded at some stage now that you mention it. I tried tightening the 2 little bolts a bit, but barely got a 1/4 turn on them and the heads want to round, and theres a constant leak from there now too, to undo them bolts and put a new plate or clean up that broken plate is going to be a pump out job now definitely I think.

Ah well, Ill update what happens later in the week. Thanks for the helpfull replies!

 

[tim falce]

I've just had a look at mine and the plate looks easily accessible and removable, I'd try without removing the pump, you've nothing to lose. The spring looks quite strong so be careful it doesn't fly off as you undo it and you may need to give it some assistance when putting it all back together. Make sure you have the correct size Allen head socket, I wouldn't use a normal Allen key as they can be difficult to locate squarely when applying pressure and put a new seal on as well.

 

[Shayne]

The cap needs fixed any way even if it doesn't solve your shut down problems . A bit of wet & dry paper and some araldite will cost less than a tenner . I would get it off and tidied up before i removed the pump . You never know by fixing a leak that needs to be fixed regardless you might get lucky and fix the bigger problem at the same time .