Engine Oil

[Guest]

Hi
Just another set of 0.02=A3...
I had other cars and saw economy on super-market dino oil, marked to specs
for those cars. Was back in the 80' and early 90'. At 200KKm's valve cams
and what not was showing (sounding) significant signs of wear... So, no more
of that for me... I have learned it... The hard way...
Now I use full-syntetic not only in my V8-100 gasoline powerplant, with new
filter every 15Kkm's, but also in my HJ60 NA diesel, with new filter every
5KKm's.
My HJ60 may not have had that threatment from new, have now run 350KKms and
is using a liter every 5KKms. Wich may be due to the thinner oil and larger
tolerances in this elder engine, though..
My 100 have had the best all along, have run 250KKms and is not using any
oil at all... I know water may be absorbed by the engine over time, but even
after hard runs on long distances, no loss is seen (where any water might
have evaporated....).
I buy my oil at a local craftsman, for a lot less than at dealers or gas
stations. Meaning, I can have it changed with filter for something like
100$'s.
As I hope to run the 100 for 1MKms, and I fear costs of rebuild or even
replacement, the cost of the best oil at relevant intervals is to me the
only way.
Regards...
Henrik/4x4.dk

 

[Guest]

Hey Brian
No bother at all, sure you cant think of every little pest thats at your
door looking for stuff. Interesting what you say about the engine passing
away after using the synth.
Do you have any more details like what happened to it, did you take it
apart, did you just drain the Dino out and then put in the synth or do a
flush first.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT

 

[Guest]

Hi
Just a little note I found.
The Germans in WW11 were one of the first to really use the synth on the
Eastern front because it did not freeze or degrade as quick as the Dino.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT

 

[Guest]

Hi Mark
Ah mark I really dont want to stop using Amsoil but I only have enough for
top ups now and the nearest supply is in the UK.
Its very expensive aswell to buy and especially when the cruiser loves it so
much it likes to have extras.
I dont know if the using of extra oil was the process of changing over from
Dino to Synth or if its just my stupid engine.
I have not made my mind up yet but maybe ill run it on Dino after the next
change, just to see if it likes drinking the Dino as much as the Synth.
If it doesn't drink as much while on the Dino it will open up more questions
for me to which I will have to get answers.
This would be because the Synth is suppossed to have a much higher flash
point than the Dino so should not burn off as easly.
I may just top it up as it needs it and then after a certain period get an
oil analisis done and see what that says and if I can continur to top it up
I will untill all the Amsoil is gone
If I could get the Amsoil cheaper than I would stick with it but I cant seem
to do that.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hughes" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ELCO] Engine Oil

 

[Guest]

I have found the debate on engine oil very interesting.
I am far more knowledgeable for it, and as a result of information sent
to me and stuff I have looked up.
So here are my thoughts (for what they are worth - they are not a
recommendation either... ;-) :-D )
1) Toyota's advice from the handbook: 1HD-T engine API CD *or better
*(my emphasis), SAE 5W-30 through to 20W-50 dependent on temperature. I
will be using my vehicle in 0 C to 38 C ( possibly warmer for short
periods), so I consider 15W-40 to be the best option.
Now I had to learn what API was, and what CD was, and what was better
than CD... If you want to know too look here:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/ShelfCard_English.pdf
So better than CD is a *must* for Miranda - so this means CF, CG-4, or
better...
Now most decent oils meet this minimum standard: API CF...
2) Then comes the debate - Petroleum based vs Synthetic ( the really
interesting part, with more than its fair share of "witchcraft" and
opinion for a scientific subject for my liking =-O )
My understanding ( based on a few days research and no personal
experience... so flawed already)
From one source: /The synthetics offer the only truly significant
differences, due to their superior high temperature oxidation
resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits,
stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics.
Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to traditional petroleum
oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is justified in your
application./ http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
Another Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
T/he benefits for synthetic motor oils include:/
* /Better low temperature viscosity performance./
* /Better high temperature viscosity performance./
* /Decreased evaporative loss/
* /Reduced friction/
* /Reduced engine wear/
* /Improved fuel efficiency/
* /Chemical stability/
* /Resistance to oil sludge
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sludge> problems/
* /Some synthetic motor oil producers offer extended drain intervals/
And my own understanding of this subject: A petroleum oil is made up of
polymers (little balls) of various sizes while a synthetic is made up of
even sized polymers. Now from playing with toys I know that a stack of
multiple sized balls does not roll as easily as a stack of even sized
balls due to jamming caused by the smaller balls when under pressure. So
I expect a synthetic to be a better lubricant than a petroleum oil. I
have also consistently read that synthetic oils are more resistant to
shearing - ie the polymers are less likely to split when under huge
forces (as generated by Td engines).
So given all of the above I think that a synthetic 15W-40 oil is the
best I can do for my engine.
Further comments will be appreciated
Graham.
A good read: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

 

[Guest]

I like that Brian-it make sence
cheers
Lubo
Btw I used Mobile1 for the first 15tkm and it didn' use a 1 ml of oil and
now I change it at Toyota with thems own oil and already had to refill
1liter-hahahahaha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian - Irish 4x4" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Engine Oil

 

[Guest]

Hi Mark
You might find, that Dino will on the very short run reduce your oil
consumption, but as your engine will very likely wear out much faster, this
is like peeing in the pants: It feels warm, but only very shortly...
Might I suggest to consider a little thicker, but still syntethic, oil? Say
5w40 instead of 0w30.? The added viscosity may reduce the amount of oil
slipping beside your oil-scraper rings at the cylinders and beside the valve
guidances - anywhere else you would probably want as much oil as possble
flowing by (seals thight, assumed) with enough pressure resistance - wich is
one of the many reasons for syntethic oil....
Have a nice weekend..
Regards..
Henrik/4x4.dk

 

[Guest]

Graham and Lucinda
There's no doubt that synthetic offers many more goodies for engines - in
the last few months there have been detailed missives from people like Craig
on the subject giving an insight that only engineers can provide.
I don't use synthetic - simply because if something goes horribly wrong in
the middle of nowhere I know I can get oil to get me through. Unless of
course I carried squillions of litres of the stuff in the back of my car but
I reseve the space for the essentials of being on the road for several
weeks.
It's a hard one but for my needs, I won't go synthetic just yet.
Jeremy
HDJ81V with the usual suspects and about to sort out a LRFT and should I get
a snorkel while I'm at it?
By the way, there was talk of roof racks the other day ... Fully recommend
the Patriot racks, full length one on my car with eezi-awn awning attached.
Fab.

 

[Guest]

Malcolm Bagley wrote:
exactly, craig has done alot of research into this, much more than i
ever will.
my engine, it literally lasted 3 km's. didnt do flush, drained the dino,
changed filter and threw in 6 litres of valvolines finest fully synth. i
didnt realise it was fully synth. i just wasnt paying attention that day
(day i was made redundant)
after half a km i felt a distinct lack of power, then looked in the
mirror to see plumes of smoke behind the car. pulled in and checked
everything was tight. nothing out of place, did u turn and back to
workshop. started it in workshop briefly. then started it again, after
that it never started again,
when it was being rebuilt, i never told the guy what happened, i just
told him it stopped. he asked me had i just serviced it, when i said
yes, he said "i bet you filled it with fully synth" im not sure on the
theory behind it, but from what i can gather its too thin and these
older style engines have too big tolerances in the fit of components
especially after 310,00kms!
im no expert but it makes sense to me, and i have heard similar before
but always thought they were old wives tales till it happened to me.
it was a 1993 mitsubishi 4d56t. 2.5 intercooled.
the octavia, the manual in mine says 10w40 semi synth. but my brothers
A4 says 5w40 fully synth, go figure!
brian

 

[Guest]

Nice research Graham, notice the text in the www.api.org link that says;
"For diesel engines, the latest category usually =96 but not always =96 includes
the performance properties of an earlier category."
That particular line is not helpful at all, if b is later than a, but not
always better things can get complicated. Some old engines might need the
older (original) spec oil, some old engines might prefer the later oil and
most of us only have one engine as a test bed and don't want to carry out
damaging tests.
Synthetic / Dino choice shouldn't be a problem for later engines, as I see
it synthetic seems to win if you can live with the cost. I don't see
different grades making much difference - the main thing is the oil is thin
enough to work on a cold engine, too viscous and oil can actually mean less
lubrication at startup, suggesting the operating temp alters with ambient
temperature infers the cooling system is closer to the limit than I think
most LC's are.
FWIW if I had a Diesel I would probably use the CAT DEO which meets API CI-4
and ACEA E5/B4/B4/A2 and CAT's own ECF-1 (ECF =3D engine crankcase fluid)
spec. Why, mostly because it's free to me (in reasonable quantities), and
with regular changes should be as good as synthetic. It meets API/SL
requirements so I will use it in my petrol LC but that would run with
anything. CAT have a synthetic option CAT DEO SYN, recommended for low
temperature starting and an Artic DEO oil, also synthetic. All supplied by
EXXONMOBIL
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
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[Guest]

Hi Jeremy
Most of the good Synths are fully compatable with Dino oils afak.
This means that you could run synth most of the time or all of the time and
if you have a problem when away from home just use Dino. That way you should
be providing the best protection for the cruiser.
Also afak you can not only use Dino to completly refill after running on the
Synth but you can mix dino with Synth but you will lower your protection
depending on the ratio used of course.
Every thing about the synth is better than Dino but it all depends on the
base stock used to start with.
Tell us Craig what is your theory about Brians engine falure after
changing over to Synth
John 92HDJ 80 1HDT
SNIP
I don't use synth simply because if something goes horribly wrong in

 

[Guest]

Hi Brian,
Snip
Tell us Craig what is your theory about Brians engine falure after
changing over to Synth .
Give us half a chance John.
3km's and ten minutes sounds a bit quick but the failure mode is not
uncommon. Tractor transmission oil is essentially not particularly
detergent as far as oils go, japanese diesel engine design due to the
nature of there piston to bore crown clearances and top ring location
require a extremely detergent/dispersant oil this additive package is
very exspensive. American diesel engines require a low detergent
dispersant oil due to a different crown top ring layout and that
pacakage is much cheaper. Now what did happen?
I would guess your engine had 10-20+ thou (0.25-0.5+mm) of bore wear at
310,000km's and that the simple additive package was not keeping the
ring lands clean. The carbon deposits would have built up on the side of
the crown to the point that they rubbed on the bore regularly
contributing to the wear and polishing off all the hone marks in the
bore that are there to hold a very fine film of oil.
So what did the syn oil do? It does not matter what brand of syn oil you
look at the base stocks are all naturally quite detergent and especially
if they are meant for diesel and or long drains they will be heavily
doped with detergent dispersant additives. These will have softened the
deposits around the rings and that was all that held the rings against
the bore as they will have lost there tension a long time ago. End
result an oil burning pig. BUT the oil did not actually kill the engine
it just showed it's true nature it was worn out.
The moral of the story don't put synthetic or any kind of extreme
detergent oil (such as Caltex CXJ) in a higher mileage engine. What's
higher mileage at 100,000km you would be very unlucky to have problems
switching if you know the engines history really well 150,000km after
200,000km you are in gambling territory but again it will only show the
engine's true nature.
It is interesting I have seen enginestorn down running non synthetic oil
all their life in Japan with 200-300,000km on them and only 1-2 thou of
bore wear at the very top of the bore but they have been worked hard and
the rings are worn out. Whereas a NZ new hilux diesel with 160,000km on
the clock using typical american sty;le oils it is very rare to see less
than 6-10 thou of bore wear.
In diesel additive pacakage and viscosity are more important than
whether the basestock is synthetic or not. But for extreme abuse in
harsh conditions a corretly blended full syn will protect your engine
much better than a mineral oil especially if the additive pacakage is
all wrong.
In relation to the Octavia be careful that you are meeting the required
spec for the oil not just grade.
Cheers,
Craig.

 

[Guest]

Hi Graham,
Unfortunately in the translation from japanese to english the toyota
manual is wrong it should read JASO CD or better not API CD or better.
API CD is a very old very obsolete spec.
In japan the all temperature std fill oil for cruisers is a mineral oil
10w30 it is very heavily doped with detergents and dispersants.
you can't actually compare JASO CD to API specs as the engine design
philosphies are so different. If you put genuine Toyota oil in a
american truck engine it would kill it not instantly but you definitely
have a preamture wear failure. The Japanese design is close to european
diesel engine design albeit the japanese tend to run more agressive
piston cooling and hence higher oils temp hence are more thermally
stable oil and oil additive package is required.
Basically look for tough euro specs but again it is still not that
simple. With the newer engines with EGR and cat's the oil must also not
upset the cat and to do that that additive pacakage has changed again
and is now lower TBN (this makes the oil less caustic so it has less
reserve alkalinity to protect your engine from acidic combustion
byproducts). For example I use Amsoil 5w30 series 3000 in my truck it is
an extremely tough oil you can give it hell and it does not care. They
recently released a new oil 5W40 that meets the DEO specs for use in
2007 on engines equipped with EGR and cats it is a good oil but not as
good at looking after the engine as the 5W30 would be BUT the additive
pacakage used in the 5w30 can't legally be used in the DEO oil because
of legal limits on the type and amount of additive package to protect
the cats. In this case it becomes more and more important for the base
stock to be of very high quality as it harder to improve it with additives.
I suspect with some of the newer very high output diesel engines that
lubricant failures are going to become much more prevalent as these
engines stress the oils much harder than anything has in the past. Some
oil companies are not as honest as they should be and will reccomend an
oil that is not right rather than say sorry we can't supply an oil for
that application and lose market share to a compeditor. This has worked
in the past as premature wear failures are not the easiset to diagnose
but at much higher stress they will occur quicker.
Petrols are easy viscosity is the most important determining factor.
Diesels are viscosity is important but additive pacakge style is very
impotant too with the tougher and tougher emissions specs engine designs
are tending to merge towards a european/japanese style design philosphy
whether the americans like it or not.
Cheers,
Craig.
Graham & Lucinda Smith wrote:
> I have found the debate on engine oil very interesting.
> I am far more knowledgeable for it, and as a result of information
> sent to me and stuff I have looked up.
>
> So here are my thoughts (for what they are worth - they are not a
> recommendation either... ;-) :-D )
>
> 1) Toyota's advice from the handbook: 1HD-T engine API CD or better
> (my emphasis), SAE 5W-30 through to 20W-50 dependent on temperature. I
> will be using my vehicle in 0 C to 38 C ( possibly warmer for short
> periods), so I consider 15W-40 to be the best option.
> Now I had to learn what API was, and what CD was, and what was better
> than CD... If you want to know too look here:
> http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/ShelfCard_English.pdf
> So better than CD is a must for Miranda - so this means CF, CG-4, or
> better...
>
> Now most decent oils meet this minimum standard: API CF...
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Hi Craig
I have really appreciated your input in this discussion.
The two oils I have on my short list are the AMSOIL 5W-30 (3000) or the
AMSOIL 15W-40 marine and diesel oil.
The local rep has advised the 15W-40 because I will be taking the
vehicle into the Sahara in the next few weeks then south through Africa.
My vehicle has only done 66 000miles (100 000km), so I was relieved to
read that a high detergent oil is less likely to cause problems with a
lower mileage engine.
Thanks
Graham
Craig Vincent wrote:
> Hi Graham,
> Unfortunately in the translation from japanese to english the toyota
> manual is wrong it should read JASO CD or better not API CD or better.
> API CD is a very old very obsolete spec.
> In japan the all temperature std fill oil for cruisers is a mineral
> oil 10w30 it is very heavily doped with detergents and dispersants.
> you can't actually compare JASO CD to API specs as the engine design
> philosphies are so different. If you put genuine Toyota oil in a
> american truck engine it would kill it not instantly but you
> definitely have a preamture wear failure. The Japanese design is close
> to european diesel engine design albeit the japanese tend to run more
> agressive piston cooling and hence higher oils temp hence are more
> thermally stable oil and oil additive package is required.
> Basically look for tough euro specs but again it is still not that
> simple. With the newer engines with EGR and cat's the oil must also
> not upset the cat and to do that that additive pacakage has changed
> again and is now lower TBN (this makes the oil less caustic so it has
> less reserve alkalinity to protect your engine from acidic combustion
> byproducts). For example I use Amsoil 5w30 series 3000 in my truck it
> is an extremely tough oil you can give it hell and it does not care.
> They recently released a new oil 5W40 that meets the DEO specs for use
> in 2007 on engines equipped with EGR and cats it is a good oil but not
> as good at looking after the engine as the 5W30 would be BUT the
> additive pacakage used in the 5w30 can't legally be used in the DEO
> oil because of legal limits on the type and amount of additive package
> to protect the cats. In this case it becomes more and more important
> for the base stock to be of very high quality as it harder to improve
> it with additives.
> I suspect with some of the newer very high output diesel engines that
> lubricant failures are going to become much more prevalent as these
> engines stress the oils much harder than anything has in the past.
> Some oil companies are not as honest as they should be and will
> reccomend an oil that is not right rather than say sorry we can't
> supply an oil for that application and lose market share to a
> compeditor. This has worked in the past as premature wear failures are
> not the easiset to diagnose but at much higher stress they will occur
> quicker.
> Petrols are easy viscosity is the most important determining factor.
> Diesels are viscosity is important but additive pacakge style is very
> impotant too with the tougher and tougher emissions specs engine
> designs are tending to merge towards a european/japanese style design
> philosphy whether the americans like it or not.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig.
>
> Graham & Lucinda Smith wrote:
>
>> I have found the debate on engine oil very interesting.
>> I am far more knowledgeable for it, and as a result of information
>> sent to me and stuff I have looked up.
>>
>> So here are my thoughts (for what they are worth - they are not a
>> recommendation either... ;-) :-D )
>>
>> 1) Toyota's advice from the handbook: 1HD-T engine API CD *or better
>> *(my emphasis), SAE 5W-30 through to 20W-50 dependent on temperature.
>> I will be using my vehicle in 0 C to 38 C ( possibly warmer for short
>> periods), so I consider 15W-40 to be the best option.
>> Now I had to learn what API was, and what CD was, and what was better
>> than CD... If you want to know too look here:
>> http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/ShelfCard_English.pdf
>> So better than CD is a *must* for Miranda - so this means CF, CG-4,
>> or better...
>>
>> Now most decent oils meet this minimum standard: API CF...
>>
>>
>>

 

[Guest]

craig,
that was kind of my thoughts on what happened. i just couldnt
quite figure out how to word it. basically the fully synth stripped all
the gunk that was doing what my knackered rings were supposed to do.
only thing is, prior to the oil change it only burnt about 100ml of oil
every 5000 km's. so i reckon that the engine probably would have went
for another 100,000 before meltown, it didnt get worked too hard.
i think you summed it up very well, it doesnt matter whether you run
dino or fully synth, the additive package is more important. assuming
the mileage isnt too high.
with regard to the mitsubishi, its now got another 30,000 on it since
the rebuild and its going great, well i think it is, i havent driven it
in 6 weeks since i flooded it. i reckon i might even take it to on of
the meets next summer if one is happening.
brian

 

[Guest]

Ok Craig
mine has gone 240000km.Is Amsoil 5W30 OK?
maybe silly question but i have problem understanding all you write though I
read it very carefully-it is just somr technical english i am not used to
:-(
cheers
Lubo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Vincent" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Engine Oil
. What's

 

[Guest]

Hi
Just changed my oil for Amsoil 0W30. I thought they'd sent me 5 litres
of vinegar by mistake, I didn't know they could make oil that thin!
Anyway I flushed the old oil out(don't know what it was but it still
felt slippy), put a new Toy filter in and added the amsoil. I fired up
the truck and was amazed how much quieter the engine was in fact I now
can't hear it ticking over from inside. It's the 3.4 V6 petrol done 110K
miles. It may be expensive at ?60 but Amsoil say it should be OK for
30000 miles with filter changes as normal.
Cheers
Rod
'97 Colorado VX 3.4i LPG
Craig Vincent wrote:

 

[Guest]

Hi Rod,
I used the same stuff in my ST205 GT4 that had a std drain interval of
5000km because of the abuse the turbo dished out. I thought I would run
it for 10,000km and do an oil analysis the oil was a little discloured
but the nitration and oxidation levels (which relate to how well the oil
base stock is coping) were very low. I let it go to 20,000km and it was
very similar wear metals were right at the bottom of the accepted normal
range so I culd have run it a lot further. After that I could not be
bothered analysing it again and just ran it for 20,000km or 4x std drain
and knew I was well inside the limits of the oils life.
That 30,000 miles refers to in one year if you are doing less mileage
than that do an oil analysis at 1 year and carry on again.
In NZ the diesel cruisers were oil and filter at 10,000km and a friend
chickened out at 50,000km from running Amsoil marine oil any further the
oil looked fine the top up during filter changes was more than
replenishing the oil additive package that was used up in the previous
10,000km. He was doing an oil analysis/filter change at 10,000km intervals.
Cheers,
Craig.
Roderick Firth wrote:

 

[Guest]

does anybody know who can do oil analysis?? its not that common it seems.
any numbers or email address's would be great.
brian

 

[Guest]

Hi Brian,
I use http://www.oaitesting.com/index2.htm they are cheap (that's the
scotch heritage) they give me a deatailed anaylsis and to get similar
results in NZ I would have to spend 4-5x the amount and the reporting
would only be 2-3 day's quicker. The PDF file they have you can download
is quite useful to understand the process and interpret the results.
There must be big trucking firms in the UK using routine oil analysis
maybe ring round a few of them or some of the companies that sell big
industrial or marine diesels.
Cheers,
Craig.
Brian - Irish 4x4 wrote: