exhaust

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John
Actually, I like doing that - I mean, the revving bit - and my next
question you've already answered...the whole body of the beast rocks
from side to side, I was going to ask why, but now I know, Hey! I'm
getting there (I'll play the fool a few more times I guess...)
Renate
>>> [Email address removed] 12/21/04 08:31am >>>
Hi Renate
Keep the questions coming then you get an answer then you know. If you
have
ever sat in your cruiser and reved it for a few times, you can actually
feel
all that power because the whole body of the cruiser rocks from side to
side. So think about that poor exhaust having to move with the movement
and
not cracking at the seems.
John c
92HDJ 80 1HD-T Ireland
 
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Simon,
I have a Longlife s/s system on my 80. Three inch diameter with one straight through silencer box mounted amidships.
Yes it is a bit noisier than standard but I don't consider it either an unpleasant or overly loud noise. It can be made quiter by adding an extra box.
Make sure that they use the mandrel drawn bends and that they fit plenty of supports.
The turbo spools up quicker than std and many hills are taken a gear higher, mine is a manual.
The exhaust will have to be located carefully in the area of the backaxle where there is a body cross member. There is enough clearance but it needs to be centralised carefully.
I went through the finances carefully weighing up the costs of Toyota O/E v Milnner v Longlife. Taking into consideration that I did not have to fit it and that I got a courtesy car for the day I went down the Longlife route., mind you, mine cost =A3500.
On the assumption that you intend to keep the vehicle for a few years - go for it.
A 3 inch system will allow the maximum benefit to be gained from an intercooler.
Re this funny noise people are talking about - I have not noticed it - and I clean my ears out regularly with Jizer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards Gareth Jones '97 1-HDFT.
 
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Hi All
Gareth, do you have the 24 valver? I am thinking that with the 12
valves 2.5 may be enough but I was told by longlife that 2.25 or a max
2.5 to preserve the back pressure??
All the best


Simon Hughes
Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
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Simon - '97 model year = 24 valve
preserve the back pressure?? ---------------- This is exactly what
you do not want to do. Statements like this by people who are going to
charge you a lot of money for working on your vehicle really worry me.
whoever said that knows nothing of the fundamentals of diesel / turbo
exhaust design.
Proceed with caution.
Gareth.
 
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I smiled when I heard "preserving back pressure", next someone will offer to
fit a tuned exhaust for your turbo diesel. I think most of the confusion
comes from normally aspirated exhaust theory for petrols and in particular
two stroke where the exhaust (not back pressure per say) is required to
properly develop power.
What size is the stock exhaust, I would have thought it would be at least 2
and a half inches.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Gareth Jones
Sent: 03 July 2006 15:47
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: RE: [ELCO] exhaust
Simon - '97 model year = 24 valve
preserve the back pressure?? ---------------- This is exactly what
you do not want to do. Statements like this by people who are going to
charge you a lot of money for working on your vehicle really worry me.
whoever said that knows nothing of the fundamentals of diesel / turbo
exhaust design.
Proceed with caution.
Gareth.

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Hi Simon,
Here we go the backpressure old wives tale. Yes it maybe applicable as a
bandaid to help a poorly tuned petrol engine. The gas volume of a turbo
diesel is larger than a petrol engine at most loads and speeds. 2 1/4"
is miles too small as is 2 1/2" (toyota used 2 3/8" for reasons of
cheapness not performance) 3" is the best option although 3 1/2" would
do no harm (especially on a 24v, a turbo is happiest with no back
pressure and no exhaust system at all except maybe a foot or so of 7
degree divergent cone straight off the very back of the turbo). These
guy's http://www.beauexhausts.com.au/ make a very nice 3 1/2" dump pipe
(that bolts on where the cast iron elbow on the back of the turbo goes,
it has provision for a pyro but I prefer pre-turbo) that has a smooth
transition into 3" pipe to help spool the turbo up and reduce
backpressure in this critical area. One good high performance muffler is
all you need after that such a flowmaster motorsport diesel muffler
(very good noise reduction with near zero backpressure e.g. part #
953540-10 but that is a 3.5" muffler, very quiet no louder than stock
but a much deeper bass tone).
The fact that they mention preserve backpressure would be enough for me
to probably shop else where.
Cheers,
Craig.
Simon Hughes wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Craig,
Perhaps a little harsh on a well proven field - exhaust tuning - for petrol,
non turbo engines, resonance wouldn't be possible without the pipework and
that causes a backpressure.
I am always amazed at the way of diesels to make increased exhaust sizes, I
would imagine it's no easy job to make a 3 1/2" exhaust to fit, perhaps why
2 1/4" or 2 1/2" was suggested with some technical mumbo jumbo to smooth it
over.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 03 July 2006 21:07
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] exhaust
Hi Simon,
Here we go the backpressure old wives tale. Yes it maybe applicable as a
bandaid to help a poorly tuned petrol engine. The gas volume of a turbo
diesel is larger than a petrol engine at most loads and speeds. 2 1/4"
is miles too small as is 2 1/2" (toyota used 2 3/8" for reasons of
cheapness not performance) 3" is the best option although 3 1/2" would
do no harm (especially on a 24v, a turbo is happiest with no back
pressure and no exhaust system at all except maybe a foot or so of 7
degree divergent cone straight off the very back of the turbo). These
guy's http://www.beauexhausts.com.au/ make a very nice 3 1/2" dump pipe
(that bolts on where the cast iron elbow on the back of the turbo goes,
it has provision for a pyro but I prefer pre-turbo) that has a smooth
transition into 3" pipe to help spool the turbo up and reduce
backpressure in this critical area. One good high performance muffler is
all you need after that such a flowmaster motorsport diesel muffler
(very good noise reduction with near zero backpressure e.g. part #
953540-10 but that is a 3.5" muffler, very quiet no louder than stock
but a much deeper bass tone).
The fact that they mention preserve backpressure would be enough for me
to probably shop else where.
Cheers,
Craig.
Simon Hughes wrote:

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My experience with basic engines tells me, the less exhaust pipe, the more
power.
So less back-pressure equals more whroompf.
When confronted with electronic sensors and computers. I tend to be very
carefull.
Some car-manufacturers use exhaust temperature and pressure and catalyst
temperature
to calculate optimum fuel injection.
So I'm not vey likely to fiddle with the exhaust in that case.
I've yet to get my very own engine diagnosis centre for X-mas.
Our 6 cilinder diesels with turbo are fairly straight forward machines.
Allthough I wouldn't want
to design one on my own.
I can't fault adding a stainless exhaust in a slightly larger diameter.
Chris
Toy HDJ80 1994, 2.5" OME, intercooled,
285/75R16 BFG AT
Belgium
http://shop.kapaza.be/Colleman/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Vincent" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] exhaust
 
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Hi All
The exhaust is now proving v expensive but I have decided to go for it
with Longlife. Spent an hr getting there this morning in traffic left
car only to get a call to tell me that they may now not get it done in
time for collection tonight! Typical of my luck.
Had hoped to use the original down pipe but that is rusted thru too,
looks like the rest is a collection of rust. So starting from the
manifold will be initially in 2.5" then 3" onto the free flow muffler
and then straight to a turned down pipe at exit. All in stainless. Will
be more than I expected and will let you all know total price.
Next week the injectors.....

All the best


Simon Hughes

Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Malcolm,
OK maybe a little harsh but even on petrol engines backpressure is not a
requirement appropiate gas velocities are though which are tuned via
pipe diameters and length's. Interestingly a exhaust manufacturer here
supplies a set of headers fro the hilux 3L 2.8L diesel engine and the
primary size and length they chose give a primary resonance at over
6000rpm I have never driven a 2.8 hilux that will rev that hard.
I hope I can post tables. Here is one for non turbo petrols, diesel use
requres bigger pipes.
pipe dia inches
power
2
100
2.25
150
2.5
200
3
300
3.5
350-400
2.5 Motorsport use no turbo
150-200
3 Motorsport use no turbo 200-250
3.5 Motorsport use no turbo 250-350
4 Motorsport use no turbo 350-425
4.5 Motorsport use no turbo 425-500
5 Motorsport use no turbo 500-650
For a diesel add upto one third to power output and check pipe size and
you will be in the ball park.
Cheers,
Craig.
Malcolm Bagley wrote:
>Craig,
>
>Perhaps a little harsh on a well proven field - exhaust tuning - for petrol,
>non turbo engines, resonance wouldn't be possible without the pipework and
>that causes a backpressure.
>
>I am always amazed at the way of diesels to make increased exhaust sizes, I
>would imagine it's no easy job to make a 3 1/2" exhaust to fit, perhaps why
>2 1/4" or 2 1/2" was suggested with some technical mumbo jumbo to smooth it
>over.
>
>
>Malcolm Bagley
>Stafford, UK
>1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
>_______________________________
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
>Behalf Of Craig Vincent
>Sent: 03 July 2006 21:07
>To: [Email address removed]
>Subject: Re: [ELCO] exhaust
>
>Hi Simon,
>Here we go the backpressure old wives tale. Yes it maybe applicable as a
>bandaid to help a poorly tuned petrol engine. The gas volume of a turbo
>diesel is larger than a petrol engine at most loads and speeds. 2 1/4"
>is miles too small as is 2 1/2" (toyota used 2 3/8" for reasons of
>cheapness not performance) 3" is the best option although 3 1/2" would
>do no harm (especially on a 24v, a turbo is happiest with no back
>pressure and no exhaust system at all except maybe a foot or so of 7
>degree divergent cone straight off the very back of the turbo). These
>guy's http://www.beauexhausts.com.au/ make a very nice 3 1/2" dump pipe
>(that bolts on where the cast iron elbow on the back of the turbo goes,
>it has provision for a pyro but I prefer pre-turbo) that has a smooth
>transition into 3" pipe to help spool the turbo up and reduce
>backpressure in this critical area. One good high performance muffler is
>all you need after that such a flowmaster motorsport diesel muffler
>(very good noise reduction with near zero backpressure e.g. part #
>953540-10 but that is a 3.5" muffler, very quiet no louder than stock
>but a much deeper bass tone).
>The fact that they mention preserve backpressure would be enough for me
>to probably shop else where.
>
>Cheers,
>Craig.
>
>Simon Hughes wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hi All
>>
>>Gareth, do you have the 24 valver? I am thinking that with the 12
>>valves 2.5 may be enough but I was told by longlife that 2.25 or a max
>>2.5 to preserve the back pressure??
>>
>>All the best
>>
>>
>>Simon Hughes
>>
>>Tel: 020 7549 3663
>>Mobile: 07973 288061
>>Mail: [Email address removed]
>>
>>--
>>European Land Cruiser Owners Mailing List
>>Further Info: http://www.landcruisers.info/lists/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
 
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Could not get the 3" to fit the manifold according to Warren so doing it
in 2.5" to the flexi connector. If the numbers stack up it makes sense
to keep going bigger but I guess then there will be issues with
clearance etc? I may ask him to try harder to fit the 3" on the
manifold but I suspect that anything will be an improvement on the
current. The manager Warren seemed up on Diesels and is going to make
a real empty box for the back.

All the best


Simon Hughes

Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
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Guest

Guest
3 inch will fit the turbo outlet. This is what I have on mine. Get him
to speak with thier HQ based just north of Bristol - they made mine.
BTW - make sure they use a 3 inch flexi.
Regards Gareth.
 
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Hi Simon
I checked with one of the Long life centres in Wales, cant remember which
one, but they said they could fit a 4 inch dump pipe if it would fit in the
space.
I dont know if it is physically possible to fit a 4 inch but if it did fit,
that would be better I think.
I did notice that prices vary a bit from centre to centre as I think they
are a francise now.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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Guest

Guest
Can you imagine it getting much more complicated? Well it has all gone
wrong again. Warren at Longlife has damaged his hand and now can't do
the job till next week!!! Interestingly he says the bolt holes on the
turbo are only 2.5" apart so they will fabricate a 2.5 to 3 and then 3
onwards. So will have to fight thru the traffic to get home tonight
with a rather louder exhaust than I had wanted!!!! Then do it all again
next week.
All the best


Simon Hughes
Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
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Guest

Guest
Hi Gareth,
I worked out what it is - somewhere between a John Deere and a Case
International!!
Seriosly though, I personally wouldn't be happy with the noise with
Gareths exhaust, it gives a low level reverb particularly at motorway
speeds. I'm not sure if it is a bracket issue or that the exhaust
required a second box, not sure.
However given the opportunity I would go for a 3" over a 2.5, but
ideally you need to get a replacement outlet side of the turbo - there
is a firm in Aus that supply this, not sure about elsewhere.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Guest
Good luck Simon,
Have you had quotes yet on the Injectors? I'm about to get them
serviced with a local firm - ?12-23 per injector, depending of whether
the nozzle needs replacing.
Also looking to get the pump done as well - hope to get the whole lot
done for less than ?500, will report back when done.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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=A0
Craig,
Can=92t disagree, successfully tuning an exhaust to scavenge is rare and
usally only applied to V8's and a few straight 4=92s. 6000 rpm is unlikely
tuning point to need on a diesel!
My Freelander is the 1.8L petrol which produces 130HP, the stock factory
exhaust manifold is welded pipe, looks clever and I believe it assists the
engine, the remainder of the exhaust is probably also above average size for
a 1.8L. Although quite a small engine it does a good job, not as much fun
as when fitted to a Lotus Elise, (same engine and from the look of it
exhaust manifold) and yes I have had to change the head gasket (no I didn=92t
do it myself).
I like the table, is power in KW or HP? HP means my 4.2L 2F in the FJ45
needs 2.25=94, or KW means it (ideally) needs 2.5=94. Stock is 2.25=94.
At work I see mostly turbo diesel engines on generators, sometimes natural
gas or landfill, exhausts are generally something like 2.5=94 up to 120KW, 3"
@ 150KW, 6=94 @ 400KW
We do have some big engines in;
Landfill gas , 1135KW (1523HP) 2 turbo, 1500PRM 70L V16 displacement V16 run
a 12=94 exhaust
Diesel, 1300KW (1744HP) 2 turbo, 52L displacement V12 have a 10=94 manifold
connection which we step into 12" or 14=94 (Inlet 96m3/min Exhaust 260m3/min @
500 deg C)
70L diesel 4 turbo V16 runs two exhausts of 10=94 each
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________
=A0
=A0
________________________________________
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 04 July 2006 11:30
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] exhaust
Hi Malcolm,
OK maybe a little harsh but even on petrol engines backpressure is not a
requirement appropiate gas velocities are though which are tuned via pipe
diameters and length's. Interestingly a exhaust manufacturer here supplies a
set of headers fro the hilux 3L 2.8L diesel engine and the primary size and
length they chose give a primary resonance at over 6000rpm I have never
driven a 2.8 hilux that will rev that hard.
I hope I can post tables. Here is one for non turbo petrols, diesel use
requres bigger pipes.
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G

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Guest
Hi Malcolm,
Sorry I should have put unit's on the graph yes it is horsepower.
The comment about V8's is interesting a friend is a real artist as far
as headers go and he has made several sets of crossover V8 headers, if
you look at the firing order of most V8 (Except mybe flat plane crank
pure race ones) the firing order is not ideal for cylinder scavenging if
you use the primary's off one bank for each set of headers, they need
two be a mix of two from each bank. The end result works well but is a
plumbers nightmare. The last set Mark made was for a very well built
warmed up big block chrysler, redline near 7000rpm, in a charger and as
that then sped down the road is sent shivers down your spine (barking
out through two fairly low restriction flowmasters) but it sounded
nothing like a conventional V8 it sounded more like a straight six race
motor and no v8 burble at idle even though it had quite a lopey cam.
I made a set of equal length, within 5mm of each other, headers dumping
into a expansion chamber 12-15x the volume of the swept volume of one
cylinder that were tuned for 4000rpm (peak power and modelled using
engine analyser software that takes into account cam lift/duration and a
whole heap of other factors) for my hilux 3L 2.8L diesel with a
Flowmaster 21/2 muffler. Stuffing a 9L exspansion chamber under a ute is
not that easy with smooth transissions out of it. That ute was
incredibly torquey even at just off idle (there was a resonance upto
about 1500rpm that made the engine breathe much better than it should
have) and from 3000-4500rpm it had a very strong topend power band. It
would out run most 2.4l diesel turbo toyota's.
Back to cruiser stuff a few years ago I was asked to build a custom set
of headers for a 1HZ and turbo it at the same time. The front three
cylinders fed into a cosworth type merge collector and the rear did the
same. They were kept separate all the way to the turbo which had a split
pulse exhaust housing with 3cyls feeding one side and the back three the
other side. The firing order and the split pulse were all working
together as the best combination to let the engine breathe easily (out
of the exhaust ports) and spool up the turbo. The turbo was
theoretically too big but in reality worked beautifully. It was a
automatic low spec part time 4wd and the owner was a bit of a hoon he
wanted as much go as he could get. He came to pick it up and said how
does it go to which I replied OK and told him to try it. It was a very
quiet industrial area, I said to him just potter out onto street and
stop them bury your right boot and tell me what you think, he did and
the truck would hesitate for a fraction of a second then light up both
back tires for about 2-3 car lenghs before it finally settled down. He
had a grin so big it looked like he was in danger of permanently
damaging his face. The headers were a pig to make and they are prone to
cracking no matter how carefully they are built, but last I heard they
had over 150,000km on them, that is the fastest 1HZ I have ever driven
the owner never found the top speed as the vehicle handling limited it.
Most exhaust are built to a price not ultimate performance as the saying
goes 'how fast do you want to go how much do you want to spend' applies.
There is a ex TTE GT4 Celica in NZ with a hand built TTE exhaust on it
made in 321 Stainless and from the turbo back that exhaust cost about
2000 pounds to build, it is a work of art and works very well but 2000
pounds isa lot of money.
Interesting numbers on the big industrial stuff Malcolm. As the pipe
size goes up the cost of fabrication and materials does to and the
performance gains have to be juggled with the gain achieved per pound
spent. I think on group A rally cars an acceptable limit is 1000
pounds/kW gained.
I thought the elise was now powered by Celica 1800VVTi motors as the
original engines could not meet US emmission stds.
Cheers,
Craig
Malcolm Bagley wrote:
 
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Hi C and M
I'm lost now. I like all the technical stuff but not having =A31000 per 100hp or whatever will just go for what will fit under the car as all I wanted was a new exhaust that would allow the engine to run a bit easier and outlast the last lot..... He showed me the 3" stainless and without sounding crass it is a very large pipe! While the car was on the ramp I had a look underneath and oh dear do I need a new exhaust. Broken cheese grater is one way to describe the number of holes in it!
Will research options as =A3800 for 3" stainless is ouch! Also he seemed unsure if he could get it over and under without squashing it!! Painful.
Any ideas without resorting to learning to weld stainless myself????
Julian? Pigs? What will the neighbors think with all that squealing going on???
All the best


Simon Hughes
Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
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Julian doesn't have any neighbours - lucky sod!
Pete
All the best
Simon Hughes
Tel: 020 7549 3663
Mobile: 07973 288061
Mail: [Email address removed]
 
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