IFS vs FFA

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Hi Jeremy,
How would they have grounded out? - bearing in mind that you need to be
comparing like for like so a 100 series with the same 2.5" lift - OK you won't
get the benefit of the articulation at the front, but the diff is up out of
the way at the front that has some advantages.
I know guys in Aus you travel across the outback in 100s and will go anywhere
an 80 can go and also guys in the US who will happily take their 100s along
trails like the Rubicon along with 80 series who I am sure will be happy to
prove you wrong.
I was actually suprised on Salisbury at how well Richard Mclennan's stock 90
did along some of the severe ruts we encountered.
[I would be interested to know if any of you others have views on this since I
know one or two of you on the list who are currently prepping 90s and 100s for
Overlanding]
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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The route we had to negotiate would have meant one wheel up and one down at
the same time which in my estimation would have had the diff resting on a
large boulder. With a straight line, ie a fixed axle, it never happened. You
also have to remember that were travelling with a load in the back capable
of supporting us for over 2 weeks in the wild... Water, fuel food etc etc.
Not just a weekend over trails in the US. I look at it as simple physics.
But them what do I know, I'm a film maker and photographer...!
Sounds to me Julian that you may be on the verge of trading in your 80 for
something else...
Jeremy
On 8/1/06 17:01, "Julian Voelcker" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
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Hi Jeremy,
Usually in these situations with IFS the vehicle will be lifted by the wheel
that is up, with the opposite wheel coming off the ground, resulting in the
diff being higher off the ground than with a fixed axle.
Naturally, although most of that weight is over the rear axle which is fixed
on both styles of vehicle.
No, just playing devils advocate. I am yet to hear of a truly legitimate
arguement against using an IFS or ECU equipped vehicle for the sorts of
overlanding 99% of the people do - I think that it is one of those urban
myths.
Although a 100 series is very tempting, being slightly bigger internally than
an 80 and being a more comfortable ride over long distances.
Stuart Hamilton who I bought my 80 from now has a 100 series and regularly
does trips out to Morrocco and Mauri with his two boys without any problems or
encountering terrain he can't tackle, but would have done with an 80.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Hey Julian
Could you give an example of the IFS in use sorry its just I have never seen
this in action and wonder well I wonder.
I would also like to get the 100 but will have to wait a while. There is
this really bad, terrible woman who keeps parking hers right where I can see
it.
Its not fair teasing like that.
But its a 02 and its worth 65,000 euro she said.
John C
92HDJ 80 1HDT Rep of Ireland
 
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In my experience of leading IFS vehicles on green laning trips and
recovering them at Pay & Play sites the clearance problem is with the
lower suspension arm. The more the suspension articulates the worse the
problem gets. From what I've seen the arm sits much lower than a solid
axle diff and they triangulate the corner as it were so are really poor
in deep ruts where the car ends up sitting on it's lower suspension arms
with air under the tyres ;-( When those ruts have thick roots or big
chunks of stone in the centre hump the suspension arms take a real
bashing.
There are a couple of lanes we like to drive that I can't take IFS
vehicles along, it rips the underside out of them. Think deep rut on
left, deep rut on right but higher up than left side, big hump in the
middle, 20 degree side slope, all rock surface, IFS just sits down onto
the rock and kills itself.
For normal over landing, climbing rocks etc where you can be careful
with it IFS may be fine but don't expect to abuse it the way you can a
solid axle and get away with it ;-)
Best regards,
Jon.
 
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Hi John,
Most road cars have IFS.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Jon has said it all below really, except substitute deep ruts for boulders
and rocky piste, and dried out ruts filled with more boulders. If the left
front on an IFS vehicle is on a boulder much higher than the right front
which is slowly going down a rut, the diff will hit. It is easier to get
yourself out of this with a fixed axle.
It's worth saying that I came to the rescue of 2 Shoguns on this piste in
Morocco as both had bottomed. The only time I've ever used my HiLift jack...
Jeremy
On 8/1/06 21:03, "Jon Wildsmith" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
--
 
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OK, Jon some good points, although you do qualify it by saying:
which confirms what I was saying that I suspect most Overlanders wouldn't
want to get their vehicles into the types of extreme situations where the
difference matters.
Out of interest, are the IFS vehicles you are referring to on stock
suspension or lifted - I understand the issues with clearance under the
suspensions arms but it would be interesting to clarify the key issues.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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It''s my understanding that suspension mods on the newere models with IFS
are more complex. And with severe limitations. The front wishbone mounts on
a front wheel/axle cannot be moved after all, so angles and so on are
already compromised. Many of the IFS cars have adjustable shocks/suspension
and many of these have proprietary mounts and so cannot be changed. Would
love to go on but am just dashing out...
On 9/1/06 00:00, "Julian Voelcker" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones
Mob: 07831 458 793
--
 
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Another problem with IFS setups occurs when the front end "lands" heavily.
On a live (solid) axle, when you hit the ground, both wheels go up
(obviously) to absorb the shocks.
This is OK, because the live axle carries the differential up with it.
on an IFS vehicle, when the Wheels go up,
the Differential goes down. So when you need ground clearence the most
(on "Landings") on some vehicles
it's possible to get the differential *LOWER* than the bottom of the
tyres. Hence the vulnerability of the diff under these circumstances.
Pete
Jeremy Llewellyn-Jones wrote:
 
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Hi Jeremy,
It is possible and easy to get a 2" lift which is standard for overlanding and
there is a kit from OME to do it.
However there are some issues with longevitiy with the CVs due to the
increased angles, however there are some companies (mainly in Aus) that do a
kit to adjust the position of the Dif to reduce these angles and restore
durability.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Hi,
Yes, I agree. I have yet to do any overlanding but I should think if
you're not being too adventurous then IFS is no big deal and gives a
better ride so the vehicle fits your requirements more optimally for
more of the time if it's also a family vehicle.
Personally if I was overlanding I would stick with an 80 or even get a
60 for their greater simplicity and robustness but I would want to do
something adventurous. Yes you can get an ECU flown out to you but your
options for limping the car to somewhere you can organise that are very
much reduced with the proliferation of electronics. There are all kinds
of mechanical disasters that can be bodged to get to civilisation.
My dislike of ECU's in this application is that you can't determine
their state of wear. With most mechanical components you can gauge what
state they're in and they often fail over time and give indications of
it. Electronics die more often than not because of the stresses
introduced by heating up and cooling down again but you can't tell your
ECU only good for a few thousand miles more they just stop working. Then
there's the problem of diagnosing that it is one of the ECU's and not
one of the multitude of sensors that accompany them ;-)
I would trust a modern Toyota more than any other make but it still
wouldn't be my choice. I have a friend with a Disco 3 and a new Range
Rover, using one of those would be suicide based on how often UK tarmac
motoring causes them problems!
Best regards,
Jon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]]
On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 09 January 2006 00:01
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] IFS vs FFA
OK, Jon some good points, although you do qualify it by saying:
which confirms what I was saying that I suspect most Overlanders
wouldn't
want to get their vehicles into the types of extreme situations where
the
difference matters.
Out of interest, are the IFS vehicles you are referring to on stock
suspension or lifted - I understand the issues with clearance under the
suspensions arms but it would be interesting to clarify the key issues.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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Hi Peter,
True, although the diffs tend to be higher to start of with and they
are easier to protect with bash plates.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
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