Migrants in Germany cause more trouble

[Rob Cowell]

"With respect i fear your own circumstances obscure your view of today's Britain ."

This is a good point, i find that those that champion something the most, are often those least effected by its eventual consequence.

The eventual consequence of what precisely? I'm advocating that we avert a humanitarian crisis by allowing some migration in to Europe, and that the UK shares in that effort. I am not advocating open borders.

For a nation that bases it's welfare state on taxing the young and working to pay for the elderly and sick, we have to keep the economy growing. Long term, an aging population damages an economy through lack of production. There would clearly be some early costs in housing immigrants, I believe that the medium term costs would be low to negligible against our existing welfare spend. This is the cost or not cost of us helping our fellow humans.

Economically we could take a stand and say we don't want economic growth, we think the constant drive for more consumerism is hugely damaging and we need a more sustainable way to live. I think that sounds great. So who voted Green at the last election? They advocate taking more migrants though.

As Shayne suggests I have a vested interest here. I want to have a welfare state when I am likely to need one, in 25+ years time. 95% (maybe more) of the people in my job are now in the Indian sub-continent. Certainly in my last job I was one of about 5 out of 200+ in the UK on my projects. I know what it's like to have competition in the job market from people willing to work for much less than I would want to, and people who in recent years have meant it was very difficult for new people to be taken on into those jobs in the UK. Like everyone else here I own a large, fuel guzzling 4x4, so clearly I cannot claim to be amongst the most disadvantaged. I do vote for political parties who advocate taxing me more, or at least not reducing my taxes; it's quite difficult to find someone who advocates more tax.


Again we are back to alternatives though.

Can someone suggest how we avert the current humanitarian crisis? It would be great to understand some alternate ideas, especially any that showed some empathy. How would you like to be treated in the same situation?

 

[Rob Cowell]

I continue to respect the UK for bringing in the genuine families from the camps in a controlled manner. This is by far the best situation for all concerned.

100% agree with this. We probably just differ on the numbers we think are reasonable.

 

[Graham]

Can someone suggest how we avert the current humanitarian crisis? It would be great to understand some alternate ideas, especially any that showed some empathy. How would you like to be treated in the same situation?

Sure BAT mentioned some thing early on.

 

[Shayne]

I am enjoying the conversation as it is idle chatter and nothing more , nothing we say is of consequence because nobody with the power to do anything is listening anyway .

I also think this thread has shown a remarkable restraint from the average guy on the street , name calling or racist comments have been kept to an absolute minimum but it should be recognized that rage and frustration exists and without a specific target it will be directed at an unspecific "them" , whom them is usually depends on which newspaper was read last . I don't think anyone would call me racist truth is i couldn't give a damn who you are where your from what colour you are royalty or beggar i will like you or i won't depending on how you treat me . We all have the same goal in life which is to better our personal circumstances .

I would suggest looking at the larger picture defeats the objective , all inclusive solutions just make things worse . Wasn't the minimum wage a wonderful idea now the guy or girl who is Olympian fit from earning their daily bread earns exactly the same as the lazy fat sod who would rather sit on a fart all day than spare the energy to lift a cheek and let it go . But not to worry they do at least earn a little more than those who don't work at all ...... or do they housing benefit i suppose the workers are rewarded by being able to rent a house they couldn't afford to buy of better quality than those that don't work . Make everyone less equal than us equal to each other is a solution set down by the stinking rich to consolidate their own position .

Charity begins at home is an overused and incorrect phrase usually followed by a suggestion to give the money to somebody other than me , hence those that utter it are not looking for charity . Dare I suggest what they are actually saying is get your own house in order before worrying about your neighbors problems .

Immigration/emmigration is human nature its been happening since time began and so there are no answers or solutions .

There is another old saying which springs to mind "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves" . The same approach should be applied to the management of a country , take a small village and apply the same problems on a much smaller and manageable scale , then what needs to be done will very quickly become apparent , apply changes ,correct the wrongs , reset the balance and what you will be left with is an imperfect but workable and unbiased game plan for the entire country .

 

[chapel gate]

The eventual consequence of what precisely? I'm advocating that we avert a humanitarian crisis by allowing some migration in to Europe, and that the UK shares in that effort. I am not advocating open borders.

For a nation that bases it's welfare state on taxing the young and working to pay for the elderly and sick, we have to keep the economy growing. Long term, an aging population damages an economy through lack of production. There would clearly be some early costs in housing immigrants, I believe that the medium term costs would be low to negligible against our existing welfare spend. This is the cost or not cost of us helping our fellow humans.

Economically we could take a stand and say we don't want economic growth, we think the constant drive for more consumerism is hugely damaging and we need a more sustainable way to live. I think that sounds great. So who voted Green at the last election? They advocate taking more migrants though.

As Shayne suggests I have a vested interest here. I want to have a welfare state when I am likely to need one, in 25+ years time. 95% (maybe more) of the people in my job are now in the Indian sub-continent. Certainly in my last job I was one of about 5 out of 200+ in the UK on my projects. I know what it's like to have competition in the job market from people willing to work for much less than I would want to, and people who in recent years have meant it was very difficult for new people to be taken on into those jobs in the UK. Like everyone else here I own a large, fuel guzzling 4x4, so clearly I cannot claim to be amongst the most disadvantaged. I do vote for political parties who advocate taxing me more, or at least not reducing my taxes; it's quite difficult to find someone who advocates more tax.


Again we are back to alternatives though.

Can someone suggest how we avert the current humanitarian crisis? It would be great to understand some alternate ideas, especially any that showed some empathy. How would you like to be treated in the same situation?

it would take more than a couple of thousand Syrians to keep your pension fund topped up I fear. I have been self employed from the age of 19, I have no company pension or private pension, I am also in the building trade. so really I suppose I should be wanting hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming into this country to keep me in work and my state pension topped up, but no, I tend to vote what I feel is best for the country and not just myself. I will also confess to having a vested interest here. im born and bred in the countryside and it pains me to see urban sprawl ever encroaching on the green fields of where I live, the complete lack of freedom we actually have in rural areas in England because we are all fighting for our little piece of escapism in this over crowded country.

its simple, as we live longer we will have to work longer, but there is nothing stopping us making our own provisions for a early/better retirement.

the current humanitarian crisis? there will always be a current humanitarian crisis, that is life, but if you want my opinion on what should of been done in this instance, for once that useless bloated body that is the UN should of done something useful and built vast refugee camps to house these people until they can return home, they should be safe, sheltered, fed and well looked after. as mentioned else where, I believe a lot of these are economic migrants grasping there opportunity. if borders hadn't been thrown open and "only" the safety of a refugee camp had been offered I would say the numbers fleeing would be a lot less.

jmo etc etc..

 

[clivehorridge]

As with Shayne's opening line in post #144 above, it's refreshing to see that some of the posts have had some considered thinking behind them, and not just the "send 'em back home" approach of other posts.

The burying of heads in sand approach rarely results in anything worthwhile...

Good thread, good variety of responses... JMO la, la, la...

 

[wobbly]

In the news this week it reported that the Poles have elected a more right wing government, whose policy revolves around controlling immigration.

The irony made me chuckle.

 

[frank rabbets]

I have not read all of this thread. Has anyone mentioned birth control yet? That's another, but related, can of worms. Current population growth is unsustainable but millions of people do not believe in birth control. The Chinese tried it with their one child per family idea. Now nearly everyone in China is over 80 years old .

 

[Chas]

I have not read all of this thread. Has anyone mentioned birth control yet? That's another, but related, can of worms. Current population growth is unsustainable but millions of people do not believe in birth control. The Chinese tried it with their one child per family idea. Now nearly everyone in China is over 80 years old .

I just read yesterday the Chinese have raised the limit to two.

 

[Graham]

I just read yesterday the Chinese have raised the limit to two.

Hi Chas,

It's actually been more than 1 for many years.
If you wanted child number two, or child number three, then there was a sum of money to pay to local government.
This sum of money was meant as a fine, however it all go's to your child's education.
In many rural villages, not all, there was not even any "fine" just as many children as you wanted, this was to help prevent the villages from becoming ghost villages.
Many folk we knew while we lived in China had more than 1 child.

Gra

 

[Chas]

Thanks Graham, so now it's have one get one free.