Possibly a stupid tyre question

scubadec

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Hi all,
Usually in a front wheel drive car, the front tyre`s wear quicker than the rear tyres,
Does this happen with 4*4 s too? or should they wear evenly? Or does the weight of the engine wear the front tyres quicker?
Iv seen in the manual about tyre rotation, but maybe this has to do with getting the best wear out of the shoulders of the tyres, and not just because the front wear quicker??
 

Tommo&Claire

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My front wear out slightly quicker as they are the ones which take more of the strain of cornering. You can see the extra wear on the shoulders of the tyres after a while.
 

Nuclear Chicken

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Apr 9, 2010
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I concur. I never rotate tyres 'cause that can mean buying 4 at once instead of 2 sets of 2. In fact I'm going in for a pair of Bridgestone 894s this afternoon to complete the set. :thumbup: A bit pricey but a mega tyre.
 

Steve Wright

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Mar 4, 2010
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scubadec said:
Hi all,
Usually in a front wheel drive car, the front tyre`s wear quicker than the rear tyres,
Does this happen with 4*4 s too? or should they wear evenly? Or does the weight of the engine wear the front tyres quicker?
Iv seen in the manual about tyre rotation, but maybe this has to do with getting the best wear out of the shoulders of the tyres, and not just because the front wear quicker??
Hi scubadec

NO not a stupid question !

But the reason for front wheel drive cars wearing tires quicker is because the power is put through the drive wheels
and with a rear wheel drive car its the rear that goes first, but if the alignment is out on any car (inc 4x4) you will scrub the edges of the tires and wear them any way.

But to get back to 4x4's they should wear out evenly, but depends on the front to back bias on the transmission you might find a slight wear one way or the other, and yes it is advisable to do the tyre rotation, and the way I would do is front nearside to rear offside and front offside to rear nearside.

One thing you should never do is have an excessive difference in wear amounts between front and back, as you could get transmission wind up, or what will happen is it will wear one set of tires quicker than it should.

Hope that makes some sense
 
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Steve Wright

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Nuclear Chicken said:
I concur. I never rotate tyres 'cause that can mean buying 4 at once instead of 2 sets of 2. In fact I'm going in for a pair of Bridgestone 894s this afternoon to complete the set. :thumbup: A bit pricey but a mega tyre.
You should aways replace 4x4 tyres in sets of four ! Please read my last post
 

Crispin

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The grandtreks on my 120 had a horrible time with the shoulders on the front tyres. I rotated all four with new AT2s :clap:
 

Crispin

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Can't complain. Well, if I'm being pedantic, they don't splash as much :lol: Driving through standing water is no more fun. The tyres just cut through it without a splash.

Grip wise, I don't think there is much difference in the dry. I never found the limit of the grandtreks and I run out of balls before the tyres do.

As per Tommo's recommendation, I have them at 35PSI which has done him well and they comfy. I did have them a lot higher but that was just plain rubbish.

Noise is ever so slightly more but not anything to worry about. Fuel consumption has gone up slightly but I am not sure it's all to blame on the tyres. I could easily get 500 (550 if I was good) miles to a tank on the dunlops, now 450 is do-able on the AT2s . 500 is a pipe dream.

Best part - they cheaper than the dunlops and don't seem to wear nearly as quickly. My front pair of dunlops wore about 40% (4-5mm thread remaining, new is 8mm) in about 16k miles. AT2s show no wear yet in 10k miles. Tommo suggested he'd get about 90k out of his pair (I may be wrong on that though. Aging memory you see)
 

Tommo&Claire

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Just out of interest, having my second set of Grabber's fitted tomorrow, just thought i'd share my thoughts if anyone is interested .

Figures - I have covered 43,000 miles in around 18 months on mine and i have approximately 7-8mm of tread left. A brand new set are going on to my vehicle because it is Morocco-bound and the current set are being transferred on to Claire's 90.

Punctures - In the time they've been on mine i have had two punctures, both on salisbury plain, one because i was stupidly running at about 40 something PSI and the other was a piece of steel bar sticking up out of the mud i.e. the type they reinforce concrete with, which is a show stopper for pretty much any tyre! Other than that they are in remarkably good condition with no missing tread blocks, cracking or sidewall damage, you certainly wouldn't say they had done 40+ thousand miles.

Tyre rotation - one, simply fronts to back at around 20,000 miles and the spare has only been used to get me back from salisbury plain twice, other than that never touched.

Grip:

Dry Tarmac - At least as good as the Dunflops the vehicle came with only the sidewalls are stiffer which makes the tyre stand up straighter and the steering feels more direct.

Wet Tarmac - I don't drive my LC fast (ask Ecky if you want that data ) but for normal driving i have never found them slipping or wanting for traction in any way on wet tarmac.

BUT

if you are travelling on a motorway and hit standing water at anything above about 50 you will know all about it. As the name suggests, they 'grab' any surface they're on and the deceleration can be quite sudden. If only one side hits the water, as is usually the case you will need to have your wits about you or else the steering wheel will be snatched from your hands!

A big drawback, no not really, just be aware and drive accordingly.

Snow - Simply put, impressive. In the deep snow we had this winter they were worth their weight in gold, i could have been driving on dry tarmac as far as the LC was concerned. i was flitting around in up to a foot of snow with absolutely no concern. i even towed a 3 tonne box van up a snow covered slope and they didn't even slip.

Mud - Now it has to be said that i do not deliberately try and get mine stuck and i'm not into driving it through mudholes if it can be helped! In mud i have never been stuck and i would say that Grabbers are probably one of the grippiest AT tyres on the market. i have never been stuck for want of traction in mud (or anything for that matter) and that includes three trip to Lincomb Farm and all that's associated with it, numerous trips to salisbury plain etc etc.....

Ice - Same as a road tyre really (or maybe any tyre) if it's slippy, they will slip.

Rocks/Gravel - Seem to do the job absolutely fine, never had a problem but i dont have a lot of experience to compare to! One thing i will say is that they love to collect small stones in the tread and hold on to them for days. Doesnt seem to do any damage but can be irritating. Only other thing to say is that i have not had any problems with rought tracks shredding my tread, all my treadblocks are still in good condition with sharp and defined edges. no visible damage to sidewalls either. Western Sahara trip will be the acid test for this however.

Sand - tested on beaches and pay and play sites, which i appreciate is not the most accurate assessment but i will report back after Sahara. Seem to be pretty good and air down well, i.e. tread is elongated but sidewalls do not bulge out too bad.

Price - in the size i run, 265/70/R16i can usually get five for less than 500quid delivered. sometimes takes some shopping around, but in any case achievable.

Disclaimer - All of this is entirely opinion of Tommo

Message Ends


NNNNNNNN
 

Jimbo4x4

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Steve Wright said:
[quote="Nuclear Chicken":pxiawnoo]I concur. I never rotate tyres 'cause that can mean buying 4 at once instead of 2 sets of 2. In fact I'm going in for a pair of Bridgestone 894s this afternoon to complete the set. :thumbup: A bit pricey but a mega tyre.
You should aways replace 4x4 tyres in sets of four ! Please read my last post[/quote:pxiawnoo]

Sorry Steve I have to disagree. Surely when open (unlocked), the centre diff will counteract any difference in axle speeds, just as your axle diffs counteract wheel speeds when turning a corner.
 

Andrew Prince

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Steve Wright said:
But to get back to 4x4's they should wear out evenly, but depends on the front to back bias on the transmission you might find a slight wear one way or the other, and yes it is advisable to do the tyre rotation, and the way I would do is front nearside to rear offside and front offside to rear nearside.
The fronts wear faster on a 4x4, especially on the shoulders because of the extra work they do - such as steering while under power (causes scrubbing), braking while steering (most braking force goes through the front tyres) and also a bit of spinning while under power (weight transfer while accelerating means the front tyres get unloaded relative to the rears). It is normal for full-time 4x4s to wear the shoulders of the front tyres if they're not rotated regularly.

I agree that rotation is best IF you want the set of 4 (or 5) to wear evenly. If you plan to change 2 at a time, then don't rotate or maybe rotate from side to side or turn the tyres around on the rim to get the most even wear per pair.
 

Nuclear Chicken

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Apr 9, 2010
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Jimbo4x4 said:
Steve Wright said:
[quote="Nuclear Chicken":1fbvvbsg]I concur. I never rotate tyres 'cause that can mean buying 4 at once instead of 2 sets of 2. In fact I'm going in for a pair of Bridgestone 894s this afternoon to complete the set. :thumbup: A bit pricey but a mega tyre.
You should aways replace 4x4 tyres in sets of four ! Please read my last post
Sorry Steve I have to disagree. Surely when open (unlocked), the centre diff will counteract any difference in axle speeds, just as your axle diffs counteract wheel speeds when turning a corner.[/quote:1fbvvbsg]

Correct. And I will never buys tyres in 4s 'cause it's just too much money and I don't think it's necessary. I've been running different front and rears since April, till yesterday, and didn't notice a button of difference. They were only changed as the fronts were worn. Then I put the new ones on the rear and moved the rears to the front. New ones always on the rear.
 

scubadec

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Thats an interesting point Nuclear, Putting the new tyres on the back and rotating them forwards, when I had a front wheel drive car I always put new ones on the front and rotated them backwards when the back were semi worn, that way I always had the best tyres where they were under most load, I just presumed I would do that too with the landcruiser ones.

Now you have me thinking....
 

Andrew Prince

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From a performance and safety perspective, best tyres on the front is the way to go as the front tyres do the steering, most of the braking and clear a path through standing water for the rears to pass through ;)

But as the fronts wear faster than the rears (for the reasons mentioned above), you need to rotate to ensure even wear on the set or you end up with the fronts wearing out way before the rears and potentially some funny wear patterns.
 

Crispin

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I've always done / heard the opposite for a safety point.

Worn tyres on the front will slip and induce under-steer. This is a much slower and more controllable than if the rear tyres let go which is then over-steer (more fun if you want it to happen).
The back stepping out on a wet road (or bend) usually results in a full airbag diagnostics test for most drivers.
 

Andrew Prince

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Crispin said:
I've always done / heard the opposite for a safety point.

Worn tyres on the front will slip and induce under-steer. This is a much slower and more controllable than if the rear tyres let go which is then over-steer (more fun if you want it to happen).
The 120 she no have ABS? :think: :lol: Surely better to avoid under/over-steer altogether by having the best tyres doing the steering and gripping properly :cool:

Crispin said:
The back stepping out on a wet road (or bend) usually results in a full airbag diagnostics test for most drivers.
I would think your car veering off into the undergrowth because of aquaplaning would be more likely than your over/under-steer scenario. Arguably aquaplaning is an extreme form of understeering but not very desirable IMHO.
And not stopping in time because ABS has to keep letting off the front brakes because the front tyres won't grip in the wet also means air-bags. :idea:

4wds without front-rear torque bias (i.e. a 50:50 split as per LCs) all understeer inherently - no need to faff with worn tyres on the front to try and artificially create this as a default behaviour :confusion-scratchheadyellow:

Remember too that worn tyres tend to give better grip in the dry than new tyres (think slicks vs treaded tyres) - so when it's dry you'll want your more grippy worn tyres on the rear to promote understeer and vice versa in the wet :shifty:
Me, I'll be driving with my best tyres on the front of my 80 waiting for the oversteer to strike and not worrying about changing my tyres around according to the weather conditions! :mrgreen:
 

Crispin

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ok, sooooo seeing as this is a 4x4 topic (says so in the heading :mrgreen: ) then I agree you are [more]correct with the better ones being on the front.


My car, it'll fall over before it under/over steers. I have never thought "ohhh she's going to slip" but quite a few times thought "Oh ***** it's going to tip" (Wonder what the limit is :?: )
 

Andrew Prince

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OT:
Crispin said:
I have never thought "ohhh she's going to slip" but quite a few times thought "Oh ***** it's going to tip" (Wonder what the limit is :?: )
Let me guess - one of those times was descending the steep tank area at Salisbury Plain (with your mate at the wheel) :?: :lol: Have to admit, I thought you were coming pretty close!

/OT
 

scubadec

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Nuclear Chicken said:
I concur. I never rotate tyres 'cause that can mean buying 4 at once instead of 2 sets of 2. In fact I'm going in for a pair of Bridgestone 894s this afternoon to complete the set. :thumbup: A bit pricey but a mega tyre.
Are you sure they are 894s?
In Ireland I could only see 694s, which are also a beast of a tyre...
 
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