The people have spoken

[Shayne]

We didn't vote for something we voted against the EU .

The idea that trade between the UK and EU will stop is ludicrous , if people want to buy people want to sell its as simple as that .

When something is absolutely beyond repair the only way forward is to tear it down and rebuild it . So yes i want us to crash out with no deal whatsoever .

When ties are cut it seems quite obvious to me America will sit on our side of the negotiating table putting us on a level playing field .

Germany was a wasteland in 1946 , American dollar rebuilt it .

 

[Firewout]

When ties are cut it seems quite obvious to me America will sit on our side of the negotiating table putting us on a level playing field .

Germany was a wasteland in 1946 , American dollar rebuilt it .

Shayne, I hope you're right but I'm sceptical about this.
Trump called NAFTA an economical nightmare. With this in mind I guess the US is not very keen to throw $$$ to the UK.
I guess the US will wait for the UK to settle agreements with the EU (which IMHO is priority for the UK) before sitting at the table.
focus of the US (and for the big EU companies) right now is trade negotiations with China. For example, right now, China has 40% of the global chemical industry and this will increase to 50% by 2030. The US will try to jump on this wagon; so (again imho) the $$$ will rather go to Asia than to the UK.

 

[MarkW]

Trump doesn’t view the U.K. with any importance, the only thing he sees as important is his own bank balance.

After 2 years the only thing he has achieved is the world laughing at him

 

[grantw]

I hope that does happen if we crash out with no deal Shayne. I don't think it will though, there are too many politicians from other countries involved that are already pouncing to better themselves and their countries at the expense of the UK. The US is one of these and is already trying to lower our very high food standards. India is saying they won't do a favourable deal without increasing immigration.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/peter...l-hormone-beef-chlorine-washed-chicken-2018-7
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-deal-diplomat-warning-yk-sinha-a8073516.html

 

[frank rabbets]

No doubt you'll be rebuilding Offas Dyke soon Shayne. Only joking.

 

[flint]

I’m not trying to have a go at you Shayne, but the Americans didn’t rebuild Germany after WW2, the Germans did. If you’re talking about the Marshall Plan, it helped, but was equivalent to only a small percentage of the German GDP (less than half of 1%), the UK got far more. There were various conditions attached, some of which were the lessening of trade barriers and freedom of movement in Europe, which in effect led to the basis of the setting up of the EU. I think the UK only finished paying back various loans (with interest) incurred during and after WW2 from the US about 10 years ago. Now that, like us, the USA is a debtor nation, they will look after themselves first. Plenty of poor people in the USA.

 

[goodoldboy]

if people want to buy people want to sell its as simple as that .

If a similar product is available at a cheaper price....

So yes i want us to crash out with no deal whatsoever .

this will mean WTO rules on import and export so the car manufacturers can kiss goodbye to their proffit - how long do you think they'll hang around after that?
What EXACTLY is so wrong with the EU tat you and others are willing to risk so much for?

 

[Shayne]

Do you think they will just surrender that profit easily ?

The whole thing is a mess of priorities and there is no easy way to untangle 40 odd years so slam the door shut and see who comes knocking i say , every country in Europe wants to trade with the UK so shut the door and let them "negotiate" with the arrogant anti democracy EU dictators .

I can't answer for others but what i hate about the EU is it makes all democratic vote pointless . 72.2% of those eligible voted in the Brexit referendum , i bet those missing would vote out too if they actually felt there was any point in voting for anything .

 

[Rob Cowell]

I can't answer for others but what i hate about the EU is it makes all democratic vote pointless . 72.2% of those eligible voted in the Brexit referendum , i bet those missing would vote out too if they actually felt there was any point in voting for anything .

I'm sure we must have been through this before Shayne, but I still don't understand in what way the EU is undemocratic. I vote for an MEP to represent me in the EU parliament. I vote for an MP to represent me in the UK parliament.

The party in the UK parliament with a majority gets to choose the prime minister - a role which the public do not get to vote on, so undemocratic if you like, but that's UK not EU. The prime minister sits on the EU council. And the UK party with a parliamentary majority also decides who to appoint as an EU comissioner.

So there are positions in the EU that are chosen by groups who were voted for by the public; rather than directly by the public. But only in the same way the prime minister of the UK is chosen.

And we haven't even mentioned the Hosue of Lords in that.

 

[Shayne]

Yeah makes me wonder why i couldn't vote for Trump , he's just as concerned about our schools and healthcare and all the rest as anybody in Brussels .

 

[Rob Cowell]

Yeah makes me wonder why i couldn't vote for Trump , he's just as concerned about our schools and healthcare and all the rest as anybody in Brussels .

Education and healthcare are the responsibility of national governments. And in the UK those are further devolved such that the Welsh Assembly has a £5bn budget for the NHS Wales, for example.

The EU would like member states to meet minimum educational and health standards and they provide funding to help achieve that, but nothing is mandated.

 

[moggy1968]

I hope that does happen if we crash out with no deal Shayne. I don't think it will though, there are too many politicians from other countries involved that are already pouncing to better themselves and their countries at the expense of the UK. The US is one of these and is already trying to lower our very high food standards. India is saying they won't do a favourable deal without increasing immigration.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/peter...l-hormone-beef-chlorine-washed-chicken-2018-7
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-deal-diplomat-warning-yk-sinha-a8073516.html

And yet I can’t buy property and live in India

 

[moggy1968]

I'm sure we must have been through this before Shayne, but I still don't understand in what way the EU is undemocratic. I vote for an MEP to represent me in the EU parliament. I vote for an MP to represent me in the UK parliament.

The party in the UK parliament with a majority gets to choose the prime minister - a role which the public do not get to vote on, so undemocratic if you like, but that's UK not EU. The prime minister sits on the EU council. And the UK party with a parliamentary majority also decides who to appoint as an EU comissioner.

So there are positions in the EU that are chosen by groups who were voted for by the public; rather than directly by the public. But only in the same way the prime minister of the UK is chosen.

And we haven't even mentioned the Hosue of Lords in that.

MEPs have virtually no influence in the eu, it’s a sinecure job. Policy and legislation are decided behind closed doors by unelected beaurocrats lobbied by big corporations wanting to boost their profits. We have no influence over Europe policy and they aren’t interested in anything we say.
Why do you suppose all these former Eastern European countries have been invited into the club? It isn’t some altruistic humanitarian gesture, it’s so that people like Mercedes Benz can stick a factory in Bulgaria and pay people significantly less and they can make more profit. That’s why eu investment in these countries isn’t spent on healthcare, it’s spent on roads, to improve the flow of goods to Germany etc.
The idea of the eu is a great thing, the reality is it has become a monster and a gravy train for those involved. It is a home for failed politicians like Kinnock to make millions doing nothing. It is a faceless, bullying organisation. Junkers is a truly repugnant, amoral, bullying little shit.

 

[goodoldboy]

MEPs have virtually no influence in the eu, it’s a sinecure job. Policy and legislation are decided behind closed doors by unelected beaurocrats lobbied by big corporations wanting to boost their profits. We have no influence over Europe policy and they aren’t interested in anything we say.
Why do you suppose all these former Eastern European countries have been invited into the club? It isn’t some altruistic humanitarian gesture, it’s so that people like Mercedes Benz can stick a factory in Bulgaria and pay people significantly less and they can make more profit. That’s why eu investment in these countries isn’t spent on healthcare, it’s spent on roads, to improve the flow of goods to Germany etc.
The idea of the eu is a great thing, the reality is it has become a monster and a gravy train for those involved. It is a home for failed politicians like Kinnock to make millions doing nothing. It is a faceless, bullying organisation. Junkers is a truly repugnant, amoral, bullying little shit.

Most of what you say I can agree on but the same could be said about the way the UK operates.Thatcher sold the UK as a gateway to europe with Nissan first in line.As for time serving has beens getting a salary for being in a talking shop take a closer look at the house of Lords.
If you think that Brexit will somehow magically transform British politics & make it more democratic & accountable , think again.

 

[moggy1968]

Most of what you say I can agree on but the same could be said about the way the UK operates.Thatcher sold the UK as a gateway to europe with Nissan first in line.As for time serving has beens getting a salary for being in a talking shop take a closer look at the house of Lords.
If you think that Brexit will somehow magically transform British politics & make it more democratic & accountable , think again.

The House of Lords is a different matter. British politics is a shambles, but being part of a bigger even more corrupt shambles isn’t the solution.

 

[Rob Cowell]

MEPs have virtually no influence in the eu, it’s a sinecure job. Policy and legislation are decided behind closed doors by unelected beaurocrats lobbied by big corporations wanting to boost their profits. We have no influence over Europe policy and they aren’t interested in anything we say.
Why do you suppose all these former Eastern European countries have been invited into the club? It isn’t some altruistic humanitarian gesture, it’s so that people like Mercedes Benz can stick a factory in Bulgaria and pay people significantly less and they can make more profit. That’s why eu investment in these countries isn’t spent on healthcare, it’s spent on roads, to improve the flow of goods to Germany etc.
The idea of the eu is a great thing, the reality is it has become a monster and a gravy train for those involved. It is a home for failed politicians like Kinnock to make millions doing nothing. It is a faceless, bullying organisation. Junkers is a truly repugnant, amoral, bullying little shit.

Policy and legislation is *proposed* by the Commission. And each member of the commission is appointed by the *elected* government of each member state. The UK is currently a member state and so we do have influence over policy. Just like all the other member states have influence. There is no "they", it's "us".

I'm certain big businesses loby commissioners, ministers and MEPs, just like they loby MPs and Lords. Other nation states probably loby (and otherwise influence!) too, just like they loby MPs and Lords.

MEPs vote on whether or not to pass legislation. The European Council (who are the PMs of the member states) also have to agree. The Comission cannot approve legislature.

The idea of expansion is to grow the economic market and stabilise the countries on the border of the EU. It's very expensive to have unsettled countries next door. This absolutely means spreading wealth throughout the region. This should benefit the region as a whole. The UK has always been one of the main advocates of this. Perhaps they were influenced by lobbyists, but I see nothing to suggest they won't be in future.

I don't think anyone believes the EU is close to perfect. I personally cannot see our leaving it improve the way our own nation's politics is influenced. I can see the opposite with many members of the current government suggesting lowering product and safety standards as a way for us to prosper.

 

[moggy1968]

Policy and legislation is *proposed* by the Commission. And each member of the commission is appointed by the *elected* government of each member state. The UK is currently a member state and so we do have influence over policy. Just like all the other member states have influence. There is no "they", it's "us".

I'm certain big businesses loby commissioners, ministers and MEPs, just like they loby MPs and Lords. Other nation states probably loby (and otherwise influence!) too, just like they loby MPs and Lords.

MEPs vote on whether or not to pass legislation. The European Council (who are the PMs of the member states) also have to agree. The Comission cannot approve legislature.

The idea of expansion is to grow the economic market and stabilise the countries on the border of the EU. It's very expensive to have unsettled countries next door. This absolutely means spreading wealth throughout the region. This should benefit the region as a whole. The UK has always been one of the main advocates of this. Perhaps they were influenced by lobbyists, but I see nothing to suggest they won't be in future.

I don't think anyone believes the EU is close to perfect. I personally cannot see our leaving it improve the way our own nation's politics is influenced. I can see the opposite with many members of the current government suggesting lowering product and safety standards as a way for us to prosper.

Your faith in the ‘system’ is touching. That may be the theory, the reality is rather different. As has been proven numerous times over the years the EU doesn’t give a shit about what we think, the eu is only interested in itself and lining the pockets of those within it. It is utterly corrupt and broken.
Inviting people to join the party is on the basis of what member states corporations can do to exploit those countries.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Your faith in the ‘system’ is touching. That may be the theory, the reality is rather different. As has been proven numerous times over the years the EU doesn’t give a shit about what we think, the eu is only interested in itself and lining the pockets of those within it. It is utterly corrupt and broken.
Inviting people to join the party is on the basis of what member states corporations can do to exploit those countries.

I notice you don't explain how leaving the EU improves UK politics.

Any examples of the EU "not giving a shit about what we think"? There are 28 members so there are going to be times when we are not on the winning vote side, but that would pretty much define democracy.

Any examples of MEPs and the Council being overriden? I know the Council (elected governments, that we elect) can override Parliament after consulting them, but only for national interest policies like border security. And council votes need members with 65% of the population, so as the 3rd most populous nation in the EU we clearly have more clout than most there.

 

[frank rabbets]

"The people have spoken". I think they are going to speak again in a second referendum, we will stay in and that , hopefully, will be the end of it all.

 

[Rob Cowell]

"The people have spoken". I think they are going to speak again in a second referendum, we will stay in and that , hopefully, will be the end of it all.

I think we are heading for a no-deal v stay-in referendum the way things are going. All those big German car manufacturers who control the EU don't seem to have got the memo about depending on us