The people have spoken

[frank rabbets]

My 80 was 3 years old Shayne and cost me £25,000. I had previously wasted money on British crap/rip off unreliable rusty headaches made by the Unions at Longbridge. Remember those good old days not long ago? Remember the slogan "Buy British". In truth it was buy British and support a crumbling infrastructure. My Dads side of the family were engineers at Rolls Royce and I followed the family talent by going in to industry in 1964. That career did not last but I'd seen the last of our power during my time in the factory. It's mostly gone Shayne, gone, never to return and if we leave EU what we have left willdisappear.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Democracy - a reason to vote , issues that effect us all will have to be debated publicly instead of behind closed doors so the first public knowledge of the decisions already taken by we know not who is after the fact .

Issues that effect all the people in the UK is left to local government (parliament) issues decided in the EU seldom effect the man in the street , and you prefer to risk the UK going bust crawling to the IMF and others with cap in hand and a begging bowl and over 50 years payback totaling 10 fold what they borrowed and still not guaranteed in success , and also once gone to the IMF etc they then tell you how to do things in future as a condition of lending from them , so making deciding with the EU as a family together a joint family decision , and not in prison do as your told by the IMF etc ,

 

[frank rabbets]

BTW British decline had nothing to do with EU as it did not even exist then. Trouble is we won the war, or rather America did for us. What the problem was that the Brits rested on their laurels and let other countries over take. Quite quickly other countries took the lead with keen labour and reliable products. Economies are cyclical and it either happens or doesn't. We can't force it by leaving EU. As John Lennon said "life is what happens when you're making other plans".

 

[Deleted member 13129]

BTW British decline had nothing to do with EU as it did not even exist then. Trouble is we won the war, or rather America did for us. What the problem was that the Brits rested on their laurels and let other countries over take. Quite quickly other countries took the lead with keen labour and reliable products. Economies are cyclical and it either happens or doesn't. We can't force it by leaving EU. As John Lennon said "life is what happens when you're making other plans".

Well said Frank .

 

[chadr]

BTW British decline had nothing to do with EU as it did not even exist then. Trouble is we won the war, or rather America did for us. What the problem was that the Brits rested on their laurels and let other countries over take. Quite quickly other countries took the lead with keen labour and reliable products. Economies are cyclical and it either happens or doesn't. We can't force it by leaving EU. As John Lennon said "life is what happens when you're making other plans".

This.

After the war, Britain received about 1/4 quarter of the Marshall plan money, which was the largest share of any European country. It was spent (actually wasted) mainly trying to prop up the British Empire, that was in major decline and the political ideology at the time of keeping up appearances following WWII, which when the lend-lease scheme supported by the US of A, came to an end and also brought about a financial crisis too. Whereas, West Germany received much less then Britain but invested in their infrastructure....

The rest is history.

 

[moggy1968]

Just on the point of scaremongering, the only campaign that used immigration in a negative way was Leave. That has resulted in every racist and right wing nutcase, crawling out from whatever stone they were hiding under and believing they had a voice in mainstream politics and society. As an example, take a look at the EDL - they were in decline and had become almost a laughing stock till 2015/16 - now look at them. That is a direct result of Brexit.

Yes, the Remain campaign's "Project Fear", as Leave named it, was negative, but it was always based around the economy...though now 3 years later that has almost tuned into "Project Reality".


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As I said above it was a shame that immigration played such a big role as it overshadowed more important matters, although uncontrolled immigration is a legitimate concern for many and certainly is a factor for many that voted brexit the control of immigration is something very different to the drum EDL are banging. The rise of the far right wasn’t as a direct result of brexit. We have seen a rise in far right politics across Europe for some years, since well before brexit, and the origins of that can be traced to the policies of the eu and the problems of uncontrolled immigration, and the influence of the war on terror and the way that was reported. Brexit just gave some undesirable elements more of a voice. It can also be traced back to the appalling behaviour of media outlets in their representation of immigration and immigrants.
Project fear is someway off being project reality, it’s closer to project myth.

I don’t generally like the guardian but this was an interesting article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...free/2016/dec/16/media-racism-minority-groups

 

[moggy1968]

My 80 was 3 years old Shayne and cost me £25,000. I had previously wasted money on British crap/rip off unreliable rusty headaches made by the Unions at Longbridge. Remember those good old days not long ago? Remember the slogan "Buy British". In truth it was buy British and support a crumbling infrastructure. My Dads side of the family were engineers at Rolls Royce and I followed the family talent by going in to industry in 1964. That career did not last but I'd seen the last of our power during my time in the factory. It's mostly gone Shayne, gone, never to return and if we leave EU what we have left willdisappear.

You do realise that we currently manufacture more cars in the U.K. than at any other time in our history?
The problem was never the product in its theoretical sense. British cars were were innovative and technically way ahead of the Japanese. The problem was the terrible build quality and unreliable manufacture caused by the unions, the management, the government etc etc.
We can make things very well in the U.K. that’s why Japanese companies located here, but they bought with them the changes in working practices the industry needed.
It breaks my heart what happened to the British car industry.

 

[moggy1968]

This.

After the war, Britain received about 1/4 quarter of the Marshall plan money, which was the largest share of any European country. It was spent (actually wasted) mainly trying to prop up the British Empire, that was in major decline and the political ideology at the time of keeping up appearances following WWII, which when the lend-lease scheme supported by the US of A, came to an end and also brought about a financial crisis too. Whereas, West Germany received much less then Britain but invested in their infrastructure....

The rest is history.

The French also wanted to continue to build their colonial power post war whilst diminishing British influence, which is why de Gaulle fought to keep Britain out of the forerunner of the eu, which was largely a French invention to increase their world influence whilst sustaining increasingly outdated and uneconomic manufacturing and agricultural practices.

 

[chadr]

You do realise that we currently manufacture more cars in the U.K. than at any other time in our history?

To be more precise, we assemble more cars than at any other time in our history.

 

[moggy1968]

To be more precise, we assemble more cars than at any other time in our history.

Although that may soon change thanks to the EU!

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Although that may soon change thanks to the EU!

Its because of the EU that we make more cars in the UK than ever , and most of those cars are not British car makes , as British car makes are almost gone , either sold off to other car brands or just disappeared . its not just cars other manufacturing plants are in the UK because of the UK is a member of the EU .

 

[moggy1968]

Its because of the EU that we make more cars in the UK than ever , and most of those cars are not British car makes , as British car makes are almost gone , either sold off to other car brands or just disappeared . its not just cars other manufacturing plants are in the UK because of the UK is a member of the EU .

And it's because of the EU we are about to lose those plants. Yes we got those plants because we are in the EU, not because of the EU. We got those plants because we are the UK. We were up against other EU countries for locating those plants but we got them.

 

[moggy1968]

I'm interested in the apparent dichotomy of someone arguing so passionately about what happens in the UK when they have chosen not to live here!

 

[frank rabbets]

I think the only UK car company left is Morgan. They use foreign owned gearbox, engine and drive train. Hooray Britain actually make a handful of British car bodies per year.

Good points Chadr but in fairness Germany and Japan had only one way to go and that was up. Also instead of punishing our enemies, as we did after the first world war, which caused the second world war, we made sure their populations were grateful to us for helping them avoid terrible poverty and resentment.

 

[frank rabbets]

Well I'm glad our NHS does not rely on EU citizens otherwise we would have all been going to early graves. I just hope we don't decide to leave the whole world and try and fend for ourselves.

 

[moggy1968]

I think the only UK car company left is Morgan. They use foreign owned gearbox, engine and drive train. Hooray Britain actually make a handful of British car bodies per year.

Good points Chadr but in fairness Germany and Japan had only one way to go and that was up. Also instead of punishing our enemies, as we did after the first world war, which caused the second world war, we made sure their populations were grateful to us for helping them avoid terrible poverty and resentment.

I think even they were bought out last month

 

[moggy1968]

I think the only UK car company left is Morgan. They use foreign owned gearbox, engine and drive train. Hooray Britain actually make a handful of British car bodies per year.

Good points Chadr but in fairness Germany and Japan had only one way to go and that was up. Also instead of punishing our enemies, as we did after the first world war, which caused the second world war, we made sure their populations were grateful to us for helping them avoid terrible poverty and resentment.

Very true, as James May said, ‘to succeed in car making, first you have to lose at war’. They came out of the war pretty much destroyed and were well motivated to work whereas Britain rested on its laurels, although being almost bankrupted by the war didn’t help. There was no money for proper development and manufacturing.
You can’t really blame British colonialism for killing manufacturing when that was one of the things this country’s economic might was built on!
Let’s not forget vw was saved by a British major. Also the beginnings of Toyota as a manufacturer can be traced to the Americans needing a Jeep like vehicle for Korea, Toyota were virtually bankrupt at the time. It was American investment that started the ball rolling whereas the Americans (as well as the French) were determined to decimate the UKs global influence. The American economy benefited massively from the war and subsequent rebuilding which we never really got a slice of. Witness the American standard of living pre vs post war and compare it post war to post war Britain.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

I'm interested in the apparent dichotomy of someone arguing so passionately about what happens in the UK when they have chosen not to live here!

I was born and bred there , My three kids and their kids still live and work there . I still own property there . and I come and go there , And I care about the UK and don't want to see it go to the dogs , and I don't need your approval for myself to be able care about the UK either . and I am only 59 and still expect my pension from the UK when the time comes for me to draw it . as I paid in continuous from 1976 when I left school till 2017 and was never unemployed .

 

[moggy1968]

I was born and bred there , My three kids and their kids still live and work there . I still own property there . and I come and go there , And I care about the UK and don't want to see it go to the dogs , and I don't need your approval for myself to be able care about the UK either . and I am only 59 and still expect my pension from the UK when the time comes for me to draw it . as I paid in continuous from 1976 when I left school till 2017 and was never unemployed .

Ooh touchy!!
I wasn't suggesting you need my approval. I didn't even mention you or quote you in my post!!
I just stated that I find it an interesting dichotomy that people who choose not to live in the UK are so passionate about something happening in a country they choose not to live in.
There's plenty of people that applies to.
You're too late, the country's already gone to the dogs and frankly I'd be off too if I could!!

 

[Bob]

Very true, as James May said, ‘to succeed in car making, first you have to lose at war’. They came out of the war pretty much destroyed and were well motivated to work whereas Britain rested on its laurels, although being almost bankrupted by the war didn’t help. There was no money for proper development and manufacturing.
You can’t really blame British colonialism for killing manufacturing when that was one of the things this country’s economic might was built on!.

So much of this rings true, but not for the leave argument in my book. Yes Colonialism was the foundation for British ‘might’ but that’s proof that the UK needs alliances with others. They can’t be enforced takeovers like before so it should be trade based. It hits a chord here as the entire area of farmland within 15km of my house was Oak forest felled for Royal Navy shipbuilding under British occupation. (Search Coolattin Oak on the Googlemanatrix)

What you can blame is Britain’s lack of competitiveness during the Trade Union ruled 1980s and cost cutting within the motor industry there amongst others. That’s not the fault of the E.U. Cheaper coal imports from Eastern Europe helped the demise of the steel industry, but none of those were EU members until 2004.

I don’t live in the UK, never have, but I have family there, and they are worried. One of them worked in the Home Office for 20 years so they are not easily led by propaganda