The people have spoken

[moggy1968]

I found the clip I was looking for originally, without Herr Hitler,

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=513143645859870

Shows to me the attitude of the EU politicians.

He makes an interesting comparison to Farage and that female German politician I pointed to earlier.
Genuinely disturbing, both in his actions and his words.

 

[Paddler Ed]

I have actually stopped reading most of the Brexit stuff, as it tends to make me think "what fking planet are people on" - and that applies to both sides...

I still stand by my remain position, but have seen some bits that question the justification of staying in based on productivity.

However, the bits that make me question both sides are:

1. The complete ignoring of, and then misunderstanding, the Irish border issue. Whilst NI voted remain, I did see an interesting piece here in Australia on SBS about why it voted remain - the Catholic (Republican) community voted remain, whilst the Protestant (Unionist) voted leave - skip to 11 mins in on this YouTube link:
   
   for much the same reason as many other people did - the perception that the EU is undemocratic. I'd actually missed that subtlety in some of the reporting, even though it's been recognised in the past (https://theconversation.com/how-nor...ndum-and-what-it-means-for-border-talks-76677)
2. The lack of realisation as to how small the UK may become in the global economy. Yes, it is the 5th biggest global economy (https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/), but how much of that is due to EU enabling legislation that allows the UK to be a services specialist, particularly the financial services industry which is high value? It would be interesting to read a Michael Porter dissection of the comparative advantage that the UK has received, but is now at risk of losing. PwC reckon that the UK will drop to 7th, with India and France overtaking it (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...th-biggest-in-world-in-2019-pwc-idUKKBN1OI00L)

I also have a few other brain fart thoughts:

1. The privatisation of the UK national infrastructure and services will continue, as the ability for other companies to come in to buy these will possibly be a negotiation tool. The Chinese in particular are good at this now (lots of practice in Africa...) - replacing the French and German (EDF and Deutsche Bahn as examples) who all came in to the UK after the Tories privatised the utilities and opened up the railways to "competition". The interesting one will be if the UK does manage to leave the EU (and on a No Deal) what happens to these - there is the potential for them to be nationalised or the EU ownership reversed, doubtful though... which then leads onto
   
2. Ownership and tax rates - I wonder what will happen to corporate taxes based on a No Deal exit, and if there are any barriers to the ownership (like the airline fiasco) that will come along and bite the UK - the EU companies will probably be OK in the UK, but it'll be interesting to see what happens to the UK ones in the EU. That's companies dealt with, so it's now onto humans...
   
3. We're still playing with the visa and residency things, and who knows how that is going to pan out in a No Deal scenario. There are a load of challenges associated with that, including the challenge of those who retired to the South of France etc, selling everything in the UK and buying up there. They may not have the capital to return to home ownership in the UK due to property appreciation in the time since they left. There's also the risk that there is no market for their overseas property as the UK ex-pat market is withdrawn. No one has given an answer on that, and that is almost one of the key tenants of the Brexit campaign - sorting out migration.
4. I doubt there will be millions flowing to the NHS etc from no longer having to spent it on the EU - I suspect it'll be sent back to areas that previously received EU funding; whilst the UK wasn't a net receiver, there will still be a difference in how the money is allocated, and I suspect it'll be porkbaralled more in certain electorates in a bid to curry favour and avoid resentment of a failed to live to the promised Brexit.

And at 10.45pm, I'm out of here...

 

[moggy1968]

As an example Portugal have stated that there position with regards to U.K. tourists and residents will be largely unchanged. They for one recognise the need for the British tourist pound (euro!) and I suspect many other countries will take the same view.

 

[moggy1968]

As an example Portugal have stated that there position with regards to U.K. tourists and residents will be largely unchanged. They for one recognise the need for the British tourist pound (euro!) and I suspect many other countries will take the same view.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

No, I meant their own war.

Had Cyprus been in the EU in 1974 as the EU is today and not just a common market , the military junta in Greece would not have been able to over throw government in a coup with the far right-wing Greek Cypriot group Eoka b who went on to attack the minority Turkish Cypriots , leading to Turkey invading the Island and mass killing and rape and looting and still occupy 37% of the Island by force with 40 thousand Turkish troops and heavy weapons and 200 thousand illegal Turkish settlers living in stolen Greek Cypriot homes . As a EU member now Cyprus and Greece has no fear of that happening again , and hope the EU can make the Turkish Troops and Turkish settlers leave as its a form of ethnic cleansing , for Cyprus being a EU member is a win win opportunity .

 

[Shayne]

The lack of realisation as to how small the UK may become in the global economy. Yes, it is the 5th biggest global economy (https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/), but how much of that is due to EU enabling legislation that allows the UK to be a services specialist, particularly the financial services industry which is high value?

The key word in the above for me is "allows" , notwithstanding of course that it is universally agreed that no other country (City) has the capacity to provide this service even if relocation wouldn't cause great upheaval and and hugely damaging expense .

The EU combines the GDP of 28 countries to rank alongside America as a global economy , but that's like saying everyone on this forum if they put all their money in one pot is as wealthy as that guy over there so as a group we are just as influential as him . Ha yeah right

The Eurozone is a failed project , its idealism devoid of reason , it has to keep expanding so impoverished countries in receipt of investment they couldn't otherwise afford can be used to gloss over the fact that even its wealthiest member country fears another financial crash is imminent , banks throughout the eurozone are insolvent and politically they are losing everywhere you care to look .

Saddest part is it won't be the unpredictable that causes another credit crash but rather a self fulfilling prophecy .
Not to worry though because China , America , Japan , India , just about every growing economy which is to say just about every country outside of the EU won't take advantage of that crash when it comes because ..................

We are better off out , at least then we are steering our own ship when the storm hits .

 

[moggy1968]

The key word in the above for me is "allows" , notwithstanding of course that it is universally agreed that no other country (City) has the capacity to provide this service even if relocation wouldn't cause great upheaval and and hugely damaging expense .

The EU combines the GDP of 28 countries to rank alongside America as a global economy , but that's like saying everyone on this forum if they put all their money in one pot is as wealthy as that guy over there so as a group we are just as influential as him . Ha yeah right

The Eurozone is a failed project , its idealism devoid of reason , it has to keep expanding so impoverished countries in receipt of investment they couldn't otherwise afford can be used to gloss over the fact that even its wealthiest member country fears another financial crash is imminent , banks throughout the eurozone are insolvent and politically they are losing everywhere you care to look .

Saddest part is it won't be the unpredictable that causes another credit crash but rather a self fulfilling prophecy .
Not to worry though because China , America , Japan , India , just about every growing economy which is to say just about every country outside of the EU won't take advantage of that crash when it comes because ..................

We are better off out , at least then we are steering our own ship when the storm hits .

Most EU country economies are amongst the slowest growing in the world.
The UK is the second biggest economy in EU and has a GDP greater than the 18 poorest countries in the EU combined. So the EU, is economic terms, isn't risking losing 1 country, but the GDP of 18.
Germany needs the UK not just economically, but also to moderate the French, who remember made the original version of the EU for their own benefit.
The UK also enjoys the third lowest unemployment in the EU, many other EU countries are really struggling.
The EU needs us, whether they like it or not!

 

[moggy1968]

Had Cyprus been in the EU in 1974 as the EU is today and not just a common market , the military junta in Greece would not have been able to over throw government in a coup with the far right-wing Greek Cypriot group Eoka b who went on to attack the minority Turkish Cypriots , leading to Turkey invading the Island and mass killing and rape and looting and still occupy 37% of the Island by force with 40 thousand Turkish troops and heavy weapons and 200 thousand illegal Turkish settlers living in stolen Greek Cypriot homes . As a EU member now Cyprus and Greece has no fear of that happening again , and hope the EU can make the Turkish Troops and Turkish settlers leave as its a form of ethnic cleansing , for Cyprus being a EU member is a win win opportunity .

The post stated peace in Europe, not the EU, they aren't the same thing.
The EU is becoming like the UN, and we saw in the Balkans what that means. A shambolic ineffective mess of disparate interests unable to act decisively on anything. thousands died as a result.
Both the EU and the UN also failed to act decisively or in the interests of a member state, contrary to it's constitution, when it's sovereign territory was invaded, namely the Falklands.
It is also likely that Russia invaded Ukraine in order to prevent it being taken into the EU.
Peace, such as we have had, in Europe has absolutely diddly to do with the EU

 

[Deleted member 13129]

The post stated peace in Europe, not the EU, they aren't the same thing.
The EU is becoming like the UN, and we saw in the Balkans what that means. A shambolic ineffective mess of disparate interests unable to act decisively on anything. thousands died as a result.
Both the EU and the UN also failed to act decisively or in the interests of a member state, contrary to it's constitution, when it's sovereign territory was invaded, namely the Falklands.
It is also likely that Russia invaded Ukraine in order to prevent it being taken into the EU.
Peace, such as we have had, in Europe has absolutely diddly to do with the EU

The Falklands , Canary islands , Madeira , Gibraltar etc are not EU sovereign territory . they are territory held by EU members , but not under EU control .

 

[moggy1968]

The Falklands , Canary islands , Madeira , Gibraltar etc are not EU sovereign territory . they are territory held by EU members , but not under EU control .

I didn't say it was. I said it was the sovereign territory of a member state. jeez!!!

 

[Deleted member 13129]

I didn't say it was. I said it was the sovereign territory of a member state. jeez!!!

The EU was nothing more than the common market at the time , and did all what the common market could do , they stopped trade with Argentina , France stopped supplying them with Exocet missiles and other weapons and supply s and Italy the other main trading partner stopped trade with Argentina , on the one hand you dont want the EU to have powers to intervene and on the other you complain when they dont .

 

[Deleted member 13129]

I didn't say it was. I said it was the sovereign territory of a member state. jeez!!!

The EU dont count occupied territory's outside of the EU boundary of its members as sovereign , as the EU know some day those lands ,Islands will have to be given their independence or handed back to their right full owners .

 

[chapel gate]

Most EU country economies are amongst the slowest growing in the world.
The UK is the second biggest economy in EU and has a GDP greater than the 18 poorest countries in the EU combined. So the EU, is economic terms, isn't risking losing 1 country, but the GDP of 18.
Germany needs the UK not just economically, but also to moderate the French, who remember made the original version of the EU for their own benefit.
The UK also enjoys the third lowest unemployment in the EU, many other EU countries are really struggling.
The EU needs us, whether they like it or not!

not to mention our military.
even against the best efforts of successive governments. it remains the most effective fighting force in the EU.

 

[chapel gate]

I have actually stopped reading most of the Brexit stuff, as it tends to make me think "what fking planet are people on" - and that applies to both sides...

on this thread ed?

 

[moggy1968]

The EU was nothing more than the common market at the time , and did all what the common market could do , they stopped trade with Argentina , France stopped supplying them with Exocet missiles and other weapons and supply s and Italy the other main trading partner stopped trade with Argentina , on the one hand you dont want the EU to have powers to intervene and on the other you complain when they dont .

not entirely true and they failed to come out and openly support the UK. Spain was openly against the UK on the matter, as were others such as the French, and the French continued supplying arms and expertise for sometime, initially directly then indirectly.
Call it what you wish, the common market, the EU, whatever, your pedantic semantics make no difference. They were all also members of NATO and the UN. Organisations that also failed in their duty to support the UK in an open act of aggression. What I am demonstrating is that the EU has not and will not make any difference to peace in Europe. They will be as useless and inefficient as those other organisations have been and the EU always has been. They will all still be sat around wringing their hands and making speeches while the Russians, chines, or (insert as appropriate) are knocking on your door.
you're last sentence is also entirely pointless. I don't want them to intervene, I don't want them to interfere, as above thats not the point of my post.

 

[moggy1968]

The EU dont count occupied territory's outside of the EU boundary of its members as sovereign , as the EU know some day those lands ,Islands will have to be given their independence or handed back to their right full owners .

really, could you explain what the deal is then with Spain introducing Gibraltar into the discussion.
The Falkland islanders are the rightful owners, and didn't want independence, they wanted to stay British.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

really, could you explain what the deal is then with Spain introducing Gibraltar into the discussion.
The Falkland islanders are the rightful owners, and didn't want independence, they wanted to stay British.

If you ask the rest of the world who the rightful owners of the Territories thousands of miles away occupied by member states of the EU you will get a different answer to yours , ethnic cleansing an area and bringing in settlers of the occupying power dont make them RIGHTFUL owners , and eventually will have to be given Independence or handed back to their rightful owners , maybe not in our life time but some time . Falkland islanders dont want Independence because they can not stand on their own feet and need to be pay rolled by the UK , same with other Islands occupied by other members of the EU , they are the last remaining land grab by colonial powers .

 

[moggy1968]

If you ask the rest of the world who the rightful owners of the Territories thousands of miles away occupied by member states of the EU you will get a different answer to yours , ethnic cleansing an area and bringing in settlers of the occupying power dont make them RIGHTFUL owners , and eventually will have to be given Independence or handed back to their rightful owners , maybe not in our life time but some time . Falkland islanders dont want Independence because they can not stand on their own feet and need to be pay rolled by the UK , same with other Islands occupied by other members of the EU , they are the last remaining land grab by colonial powers .

It's not up to the rest of the world what nationality people want to be, it's up to the people that live there.
ethnic cleansed who exactly?
The islands were uninhabited when they were first discovered, and landed on, by the British, who staked their claim at that point. They are the first country recorded to have claimed sovereignty. The first settlement, in the next century, was by the French, closely followed by the British on the other island. South Georgia has never been permanently settled and was not part of the historical dispute with Argentina.
So you don't think the Falkland islanders should have been protected from a military dictatorship with a shit human rights record that violently invaded them?
And how about those Dutch, Spanish, and French Caribbean islands, and how about the canaries, and how about Cape Verde, and how about Cueta etc etc etc? It's worth noting also that the indigenous peoples of those islands largely don't exist anymore thanks to the wholesale slaughter to the point of extinction of the indigenous people by colonial countries, notably the Dutch and the Spanish
The Falklands are not pay-rolled by the UK, they are actually quite well off. And if that was your measure then Scotland would be fucked and so would all the countries bankrolled by the EU (which includes Cyprus BTW)

You seriously need to do some fact checking (and reading people's posts properly) before spouting forth!!

 

[moggy1968]

On the subject of the border.
The EU President seems to have a very odd view of history,notably the dates of WW2, the EU, perestroika, and when Eastern European countries joined the EU.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

It's not up to the rest of the world what nationality people want to be, it's up to the people that live there.
ethnic cleansed who exactly?
The islands were uninhabited when they were first discovered, and landed on, by the British, who staked their claim at that point. They are the first country recorded to have claimed sovereignty. The first settlement, in the next century, was by the French, closely followed by the British on the other island. South Georgia has never been permanently settled and was not part of the historical dispute with Argentina.
So you don't think the Falkland islanders should have been protected from a military dictatorship with a shit human rights record that violently invaded them?
And how about those Dutch, Spanish, and French Caribbean islands, and how about the canaries, and how about Cape Verde, and how about Cueta etc etc etc? It's worth noting also that the indigenous peoples of those islands largely don't exist anymore thanks to the wholesale slaughter to the point of extinction of the indigenous people by colonial countries, notably the Dutch and the Spanish
The Falklands are not pay-rolled by the UK, they are actually quite well off. And if that was your measure then Scotland would be fucked and so would all the countries bankrolled by the EU (which includes Cyprus BTW)

You seriously need to do some fact checking (and reading people's posts properly) before spouting forth!!

I said EU colonial member states occupying areas and land grab and not just the UK if you read my post properly . as for the Falkland Islands the infrastructure running of the Islands is payed for by the UK , the population is so small they would have to pay a 100% tax rate to keep the Islands running and even that would not be enough . the UK did not have to protect the Falkland Islanders as the Arges did not harm them , it was the Territory the UK went in to protect , many young army personal on both sides were killed or wounded needlessly .