The people have spoken

[Bob]

I'm no troll Chas.. quite the opposite, just presenting a bit of balance and reminders of what's what. It wasn't an irrelevant post either in my opinion as several posts here have refferred to the E.U in such terms as to play the part of the poor chastised and oppressed British. I don't buy it

 

[frank rabbets]

Ireland is the whole reason why this thread exists. The whole thing would have been done and dusted by now if it had not been for the problem over the Irish border to which there is no solution other than to stay in EU and that's why I think we will, in fact, stay in.

Britain did exploit all the countries we colonised. If they resisted we sent our army in and forced the situation. It's only fairly recently that the truth has been revealed and the public can talk about it and it's not unacceptable to " run our country down".

 

[Deleted member 13129]

When the UK leaves the EU and if EU nationals are attacked in the streets or abused at work , as the trend is in some areas it is already starting to happen , My worry is Brits working or living in the EU might face the same treatment as word quickly spreads about EU nationals been abused in the UK .

 

[moggy1968]

Incorrect.

But you are welcome to be ashamed of.

I’m not, that’s rather my point if you read the posts

 

[moggy1968]

Ireland is the whole reason why this thread exists. The whole thing would have been done and dusted by now if it had not been for the problem over the Irish border to which there is no solution other than to stay in EU and that's why I think we will, in fact, stay in.

Britain did exploit all the countries we colonised. If they resisted we sent our army in and forced the situation. It's only fairly recently that the truth has been revealed and the public can talk about it and it's not unacceptable to " run our country down".

No it isn’t, Ireland wasn’t mentioned until some way into the thread.
My point, if you read it, is that we behaved considerably better than most other colonial nations that are in the eu
The ‘truth’ Was always there, it’s just the fashion now it seems to use it as a stick to self flagellate with. It’s on the same level as ‘old people ruined our country and our future’
The Irish backstop is not insurmountable, solutions have been suggested, it’s just a handy, and rather immoral thing the EU is using to try and force us into a position.

 

[moggy1968]

When the UK leaves the EU and if EU nationals are attacked in the streets or abused at work , as the trend is in some areas it is already starting to happen , My worry is Brits working or living in the EU might face the same treatment as word quickly spreads about EU nationals been abused in the UK .

Yes, I’ve already seen some of that in my work. As I’m married to a non EU National I’ve also seen the effect in this country of the idiot minority that unfortunately some rather foolish people think is representative of all leave voters.

 

[moggy1968]

I'm not whining about it Moggy, or particularly ashamed of it, no point in that, just trying to be realistic. If you are going to present a defence of your argument, it just helps to get your facts straight. The land appropriation was mainly in order to extract that countries resources, not particularly to improve the lot of its citizens. To see the British Empire just as a benign force for good is to ignore the fact that much of it was gained by force.

My facts are entirely straight.
I didn’t try and present a defence for my argument, I presented the reality of history to balance someone else’s very one dimensional version.
I didn’t say we did it to improve the lot of their citizens.
I didn’t say that the British empire was a benign force for good
I didn’t ignore the fact that much of it was taken by force.
I am well aware of what occurred in the name of the British empire, but I am also well aware of the considerable benefits that empire brought and the many good things it did.
I am also very well aware, as some appear not to be, of the need to place history in the context of its time and not by the standards and hehaviours of today.
I am also very well aware, as some don’t appear to be, of the manner in which many other countries conducted their colonialisation.
It helps if you are going to respond to someone’s post if you actually read their post correctly and in context.

 

[Shayne]

Want to leave... Fine.. not happy with E.U policy.. Fine.. want to reclaim full sovereignty.. fine (because the sovereign government is performing so well) but please don't talk about oppression or foreign power.. I'm not sure it is what you think it is.

No denial of history on my part , but what were "The Troubles" all about . There ain't no point in talking when there's nobody listening - so we will make them listen . On both sides there were victims who played no part in creating the circumstance that cost them so dearly . Nobody wants a return to that , anywhere .

In my view EU oppression hasn't even started yet , right now they are still trying to hide behind the peace love , save the planet , and we will not tolerate intolerance bullshit . So where are these flower power nazi's when Macron calls the army in to deal with unhappy civilians , where were they when innocent Catalan's simply wanted to express a free opinion ?

EU army my ass they want a military police force to suppress the people they do not represent .

 

[Shayne]

Incidentally only the EU want to put a border in Ireland , so its not our problem .

 

[Chas]

I'm no troll Chas.. quite the opposite, just presenting a bit of balance and reminders of what's what. It wasn't an irrelevant post either in my opinion as several posts here have refferred to the E.U in such terms as to play the part of the poor chastised and oppressed British. I don't buy it

OK, I apologise for that Rob, I just get fed up with being 'reminded' of how much better we are in the EU, my mind is made up and nothing so far has been said to make me change my mind.
Here is a very good example of why I want out.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=427059471381347

 

[Deleted member 13129]

OK, I apologise for that Rob, I just get fed up with being 'reminded' of how much better we are in the EU, my mind is made up and nothing so far has been said to make me change my mind.
Here is a very good example of why I want out.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=427059471381347

I fail to see any comparison with Hitler , most Europeans wave their hands around when they talk ,I will say this since the EU started western Europe has been at peace and and long as the EU continues it will stay that way .

 

[Chas]

I fail to see any comparison with Hitler , most Europeans wave their hands around when they talk ,I will say this since the EU started western Europe has been at peace and and long as the EU continues it will stay that way .

It's the attitude Tony the attitude, today Europe tomorrow the world.

 

[moggy1968]

I fail to see any comparison with Hitler , most Europeans wave their hands around when they talk ,I will say this since the EU started western Europe has been at peace and and long as the EU continues it will stay that way .

That has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, and is wrong anyway.
Just remind me again of Cyprus’ recent history? And Ireland’s?

 

[Bob]

OK, I apologise for that Rob, I just get fed up with being 'reminded' of how much better we are in the EU, my mind is made up and nothing so far has been said to make me change my mind.
Here is a very good example of why I want out.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=427059471381347

All good Chas.. not taking it to heart fella! I do see why some leave voters voted leave, and I'm not blind to the flaws within the E.U either. Although I was hopeful that we could have avoided the Hitler thing! For me the bigger problem is the ludicrous situation that we are in now. To some extent its ignorance of the consequences of the vote that bothers me. And that's MPs I'm talking about..

 

[Bob]

Incidentally only the EU want to put a border in Ireland , so its not our problem .

The troubles was a complex situation, and I don't defend the actions on either side. But it goes back to the colonial plantation of 1609. Unfortunately in the 20th century it became an outlet for extremists and more than politics all round. The IRA did not represent the people.

As for the border, the UK doesn't know what it wants.. so far as I've read, the govt. want no border, but no common market, but customs has to be dealt with, but then we can't deal with N.I differently, but then ... And so it goes. We certainly don't want any border.

May's deal with the devil for the confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP has been catastrophic

 

[Chas]

All good Chas.. not taking it to heart fella! I do see why some leave voters voted leave, and I'm not blind to the flaws within the E.U either. Although I was hopeful that we could have avoided the Hitler thing! For me the bigger problem is the ludicrous situation that we are in now. To some extent its ignorance of the consequences of the vote that bothers me. And that's MPs I'm talking about..

I didn't particularly want the Hitler aspect, I was looking for the clip of the other chap but I could only find the one I posted, It was his absolute conviction that the EU was the only future I was so annoyed about.

 

[moggy1968]

All good Chas.. not taking it to heart fella! I do see why some leave voters voted leave, and I'm not blind to the flaws within the E.U either. Although I was hopeful that we could have avoided the Hitler thing! For me the bigger problem is the ludicrous situation that we are in now. To some extent its ignorance of the consequences of the vote that bothers me. And that's MPs I'm talking about..

Some 27 years ago in my first nursing post I looked after chap who was 80. He was German. At 80 he was still over 6 foot tall, lantern jawed and massively framed with a shock of white, once blond hair. He had been a paratrooper and Did all the combat jumps in ww2. You could just imagine him being the third reichs pin up boy.
He was a lovely chap, married an English girl after the war (he was a POW here).
We chatted a lot about the war. He wasn’t a Nazi, he said most weren’t, but Hitler gave them hope. Hope to escape from the austerity caused by the treaty of Versailles.
Then he said what I’ve never forgotten and what has come back to haunt us, ‘he told us he would make Germany great again’

 

[Bob]

More personal amusement on that one Chas! I was only teaching a group of 17 year olds about Godwin's law last week..

 

[Deleted member 13129]

It's the attitude Tony the attitude, today Europe tomorrow the world.

With the UK leaving the EU will make both weaker , the USA will start cozying up to France instead of the UK so as to keep the influence that they have on the EU to keep them on side tharthar then an opposition , the UK will not be as important as they wont have any power in the EU to sway the EU to take the USAs lead against Russia and China , as both are swiftly growing power houses , Russia is now back to where it was in the Soviets Unions hay day , The UK will be a lot less capable against Russia now its alone , China as we all know is growing big and fast , at the same time their military is getting to be colossal and are starting to stand up to the USA in their part of the world and soon further , NATO has almost disappeared and is really there in name only . Russia can't believe there luck seeing the UK and the EU against each other , because when the dust has settled such bad blood will flow from the mouths of the Politicians against each other , like we are so glad we left from the UK and thank god you had gone and good riddance from the EU , Russia will have more influence on the EU because of oil and gas sales the EU is becoming more reliant on Russia to supply them , the UK wont be able to keep that in check when they leave . the EU will soon have its own army with out UK participating resulting in the EU and the UK separate from each other instead of one force with interests to suit all , will result in separate interests and could oppose each other .

 

[Bob]

Some 27 years ago in my first nursing post I looked after chap who was 80. He was German. At 80 he was still over 6 foot tall, lantern jawed and massively framed with a shock of white, once blond hair. He had been a paratrooper and Did all the combat jumps in ww2. You could just imagine him being the third reichs pin up boy.
He was a lovely chap, married an English girl after the war (he was a POW here).
We chatted a lot about the war. He wasn’t a Nazi, he said most weren’t, but Hitler gave them hope. Hope to escape from the austerity caused by the treaty of Versailles.
Then he said what I’ve never forgotten and what has come back to haunt us, ‘he told us he would make Germany great again’

A neighbour of mine is the son of quite a well known (in this part of the world anyway) German man who fled Germany in 1944 after the aborted assassination plot on Hitler, in which he was involved. Very interesting people to talk to. Likewise have spoken about the propaganda and how it was bought into by so many. They bought a huge farm here on which my house is built on a sold-off site. (Sorry- thread derailement!)