The people have spoken

[moggy1968]

and make withering comments about anyone who might disagree with it.

neither did I

 

[moggy1968]

Ok so lets have some statistics.
I've said before that I'm indifferent to Brexit but what bothers me is that most of what is cited as a reason to leave isn't based on facts , the advantages if leaving have been oversold & the downside almost ignored until now.Even with a no deal scenario I can't see the UK demanding Visas for all European countries & if the single out , say Romania or Poland the response from the rest of the EU will be Visas for anyone crossing the channel.Just think about that for a minute.Even the tightest border controls won't stop anyone determined to get in but the worst no deal case will see serious economic damage to the UK.

There have been numerous cases reported in the press. Do you deny there have been any convicted criminals allowed into the UK?

Short term damage to the UK economy is, and always has been, very likely in the leave scenario.

There are plenty of immigrants from outside the EU who have been checked and let in despite checks being made, so border checks are not the only defence and it would be naive to think so, we need an immigration service and legal process that is robust and fit for purpose, but I would suggest having some sort of controls over who comes in is going to be more helpful than no controls.

The remain argument has also been really rather short on facts

I have answered the visa issue above

 

[Bob]

I'm throwing this in, because it's only been mentioned once in this entire thread, and as far as I can see, nobody in the Brexit campaign was talking about it before the referendum, and that's the border beween the Republic and Northern Ireland.
The Good Friday agreement stated that there could not be a hard border re-introduced between the two. Brexit necessitates the hard border if the plans for sovereignty and border control are to be met.
Both of these cannot happen, so the 'backstop ' is there to separate the North from the rest of the UK. But the DUP won't stand for that... The Conservatives got into bed with Arlene Foster and are now realising the err of their ways as she holds far more sway now than ever she should. There's no simple way out of this part, and for many of us in the Republic, it seems that the chickens of colonial rule are finally coming home to roost.

I have seen many comments on various sites that the Irish should just stay out of it... Or get over it... History is soon forgotten if it's not in favour of your argument.

 

[Shayne]

I wonder if that's why they just scrapped the Welsh border ?
OOPS sorry i just googled it and apparently it was just a toll bridge

anyway we are actually making progress here , personally i very much appreciate your attempt at empathy Rob , its too late in the day now but if more remainers had bothered to make such an effort instead of trying to ram bullshit doomsday facts and figures down peoples throat , the quite possibly the referendum outcome might have been different .

With empathy in mind try to imagine everything Juncker represents to any decent person of moral worth .

That might just help .

 

[Bob]

I presume you're not really comparing the Welsh border to the British border on the island of Ireland and have your tongue firmly wedged in your cheek!

It was only 20 years ago that the militarised border was removed, and there are only two options with Brexit, a return to the darkness of that time, or a complex divide within the UK itself.

The Common Travel Area between our two islands has been mutually beneficial for agriculture, cross border employment, tourism and the general relations between us. It's the thorn in Mrs May's side and the huge, out of control truck on the road that nobody saw coming.

 

[goodoldboy]

Do you deny there have been any convicted criminals allowed into the UK?

No one has been "allowed"into the UK to commit crimes - that implies something different.you still haven't put any numbers on it.Press reports aren't proper data.Try doing a search & you'll find that there is little evidence , if any , to link crime to immigration.I would imagine if such data existed UKIP would have it plastered on billboards in 6ft high letters.

 

[goodoldboy]

the border beween the Republic and Northern

Which seems to be causing the impasse within the Tory party.The last time the UK had a final say on the border between the Republic & the 6 counties it resulted in a civil war & eventually led to the so called troubles.

 

[goodoldboy]

How about a few facts to liven up the debate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#cite_note-:6-7
From the no shit Sherlock files. "Research suggests that the perception that there is a positive causal link between immigration and crime leads to greater support for anti-immigration policies or parties"

 

[Bob]

Indeed... We haven't coined a uniquely Irish term for Brexit yet, the 'troubles' of course being a wild understatement, and we officially referred to WWII as 'the emergency'

It comes back to the idea that a lot of people in the UK had no idea, or were misinformed as to what they were actually voting for in the referendum. Add to that, a lot of them couldn't care less about Northern Ireland either

 

[flint]

The assumption that a land border between the Republic and Northern Ireland can reopen and be policed effectively is a fanciful one. About 300 possible known crossing points in a 310 mile border identified so far and many people ready and well able on both sides to exploit any weaknesses. The border didn't used to be called bandit country for nothing. The Good Friday Agreement has made a big difference in NI (my sister lives there), but feelings are still running high in certain quarters and to jeopardise it is asking for trouble.

 

[moggy1968]

No one has been "allowed"into the UK to commit crimes - that implies something different.you still haven't put any numbers on it.Press reports aren't proper data.Try doing a search & you'll find that there is little evidence , if any , to link crime to immigration.I would imagine if such data existed UKIP would have it plastered on billboards in 6ft high letters.

I would suggest you at least do me the courtesy of reading my post properly before replying. I clearly stated that there is no link between immigration and increased crime.
Thats not the point. The point is about not letting people in who have a record of serious crime. The actual numbers are entirely irrelevant to that point. If there is just one, I don't want them here, if there are 1001, I don't want them here.

I also did not state that people are allowed into the UK to commit crime. What I stated was that people with confirmed convictions for serious offences have been allowed into the UK, which is entirely different.

But, as you seem intent on wanting statistics, I've taken some snippets from references to proper bona fide research on Wiki to spoon feed you.
According to the prison population statistics, foreigners represent 13% of the UK population. Foreigners represent 13% of the prison population,
Jaitman, Laura; Machin, Stephen (2013-10-25). "Crime and immigration: new evidence from England and Wales". found no evidence of a casual causal impact of immigration on crime, as did Bell, Brian; Fasani, Francesco; Machin, Stephen (2012-10-10). "Crime and Immigration: Evidence from Large Immigrant Waves" and Banks, James (2011-05-01). "Foreign National Prisoners in the UK: Explanations and Implications". The Howard Journal of Criminal Justice.

Johnston, Phillip. "Immigration and crime: the real results". The Daily Telegraph. 16 April 2008. found that the crime rate of Eastern European immigrants was the same as that of the indigenous population

so, as I stated very clearly, which you haven't bothered to note in your urge to have a rant, misquote me and attribute beliefs and statements to me that I don't hold, there is no statistical connection between immigration and increased crime.

However, that is entirely irrelevant to the point I have made.

 

[moggy1968]

I'm throwing this in, because it's only been mentioned once in this entire thread, and as far as I can see, nobody in the Brexit campaign was talking about it before the referendum, and that's the border beween the Republic and Northern Ireland.
The Good Friday agreement stated that there could not be a hard border re-introduced between the two. Brexit necessitates the hard border if the plans for sovereignty and border control are to be met.
Both of these cannot happen, so the 'backstop ' is there to separate the North from the rest of the UK. But the DUP won't stand for that... The Conservatives got into bed with Arlene Foster and are now realising the err of their ways as she holds far more sway now than ever she should. There's no simple way out of this part, and for many of us in the Republic, it seems that the chickens of colonial rule are finally coming home to roost.

I have seen many comments on various sites that the Irish should just stay out of it... Or get over it... History is soon forgotten if it's not in favour of your argument.

Does this help

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=209910316606391

 

[Shayne]

Will somebody please explain to me how or why a north south divide border in Ireland might bring the "Troubles" back into being ?

Who is going to fight for what exactly ?

 

[Bob]

Shayne, the bitterness among people on both the Republican and Unionist sides is not gone. Most people do not want a return to violence, but there are a few just looking for an excuse. Children have been brought up to hate. I see it first hand, a chap in work is 23, has no memory of the fighting or the militarised border, but by God does he despise everything the British establishment stands for. It's entirely wrong but he would even glorify things like the killing of Mountbatten.. and there are hundreds if not thousands like him. The Unionist side has them too.. The Good Friday agreement was the best compromise available, and has done a very good job of keeping both sides happy. Now one side is going to get kicked up the arse for a decision primarily voted for in England... That's how it could happen

Moggy, I did have a good laugh at that! But it does highlight that the brass in Westminster just want it to go away.

 

[hamba]

I've been trying to stay out of this but as a South African born and living in Northern Ireland as a German I am genuinely worried about what will happen here.
Every other day you hear of some paramilitary attack, something I never heard of while we were living in Kent. As Bob said, it won't take much for the shit to kick off over here. In general no one wants to go back to the dark days but on the other hand there are some who can't wait. One of these attacks that still stands out for me was last year where some guys shot up a petrol station with automatic rifles. If they are that brass then closing the border here is going to bring them out even more.
Another observation is the police over here, we have a game in the car when driving, its to count how many none riot police cars we can see compared to the fully kitted out land rovers and so far the over the 2 to 3 years we've been here the land rovers are way on top.

I genuinely hope that the politicians got get this sorted out but I highly doubt it.

 

[frank rabbets]

Answering the question in the new vote will be easy. It will be :-

"Would you rather stay in the EU or have your Landcruiser crushed?"

 

[grantw]

However, none of that is why I voted leave, immigration wasn’t an issue for me. I voted leave because of all the multitudinous problems that there are with the EU.

Andy would you mind expanding on what some of those problems are and how a brexit it any shape could address them?

 

[MarkW]

Now see this is where yet another pro Brexit claim falls apart. On one hand we, have posted above, several posts about the bad guys being let into the UK as part of a justification for leaving the EU. All sounds very good doesn't it? except the UK's border controls are up to the UK government to decide, its not controlled by the EU. So how exactly is leaving the EU going to change things to stop the bad guys getting in?

 

[moggy1968]

Andy would you mind expanding on what some of those problems are and how a brexit it any shape could address them?

They’ve been done to death and I really can’t be arsed going over it all again in a completely pointless waste of time that won’t change your mind or anyone else’s. I had my reasons, that’s it.
It is worth noting I started out as remain, but the more I researched it and looked into the eu the more I was persuaded of what a dreadful organisation it is.

 

[moggy1968]

Now see this is where yet another pro Brexit claim falls apart. On one hand we, have posted above, several posts about the bad guys being let into the UK as part of a justification for leaving the EU. All sounds very good doesn't it? except the UK's border controls are up to the UK government to decide, its not controlled by the EU. So how exactly is leaving the EU going to change things to stop the bad guys getting in?

Freedom of movement in the eu is upto the eu. The U.K. government has no power to stop that as long as we are in the eu