5G, Smart meters and the 'Internet of Things'

StarCruiser

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I'm going to say it first. Tin foil hat. Conspiracy theory. There, that's got that out the way because it could easily be said in connection with this topic. But there is growing evidence and concern that this is real and could make people ill and control our lives. I intend to find out more and I suggest we all do and post anything credible here.

It seems there is a technological change coming. It is not just coming to the US or the UK in isolation but is intended to cover the whole world. It is designed to link everything into an 'internet of things'. This is why the nice energy companies are 'giving away free' smart meters. Be under no illusion, your shiny new smart meter is not being provided to you for free because it will benefit you! You don't need one and they won't be free in the long run. This I've known for a long time but there is far more to this than I ever imagined. I am personally aware of a number of buildings that have had fires soon after the fitting of smart meters.

The below video is very well constructed and non sensationalist. It could be one of the most important videos to date. Please forward it and help people get educated.

Microwave radiation is known to us all as being able to cook things and it seems that it is microwaves that is intended to be used for 5g into and around our homes. Microwaves will be bouncing around inside our homes if we let this happen.

As is often the case, this involves huge amounts of money to be made. I'm certain it's not going to be made by Joe Public.

Have a watch, dig around and form your own opinions.

 

clivehorridge

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Good post Rich, and if I may say so, a brave attempt to “inform” with a view to rejecting and reverting so-called progress.

Many innovations up to now are tolerable, yet we’ve never really been informed of the extent of privacy invasion we have willingly yet unwittingly signed up to.

Although relatively innocuous, google (for example) knows all there is to know about the private lives of smart-phone users, but this 5G is more menacing, simply by the way it operates.

I for one will be reading up on this...
 
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StarCruiser

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I agree Clive, I'm not at all confident that this particular tidal wave can be halted. There was much resistance to Tetra when it came in, but it still came in and it's dropped out of the news.
 

Rob Cowell

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And how do we determine what is credible? When this video starts saying 5G is "a much stronger frequency" than it's predecessor I suspect the fella doesn't know much about RF, and to be fair he does say it's all new to him at the start. With smart meters energy firms will amend tariffs to suit them not you; well yes, isn't that what they do now? Seems to hugely conflate and confuse smart meters, 5G and IoT.

100% behind critical thinking but I think that covers critical evalutaion of information and it's source, and being acutely aware of confirmation bias.
 
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Towpack

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Not that sure what the guy means by "stronger frequency" either. Generally speaking the higher up the frequency spectrum you go the more bandwidth you have to play with which means increased data rates which probably explains the move 60Ghz. The health scare with close proximity to microwaves kicked of years a go with the first 2g phones but nothing was proven. The main danger with microwaves is the heating effect which requires far higher power levels. The power output of phones and all these other devices is small. As for the 'privacy invasion' side of things, personally, I'm not that concerned. I've got far more important things to worry about.
 

Chas

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Thanks Rich, that's quite frightening, TP says "The power output of phones and all these other devices is small" but if there is going to be that many more of them what is the accumulative effect going to be, I don't fancy getting my insides 'cooked' while watching the TV?
 

Rob Cowell

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Probably worth having a read about how quickly microwave radiation degrades in very short distances. A good idea not to strap your IoT toaster and kettle to your face though.
 
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StarCruiser

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And how do we determine what is credible? When this video starts saying 5G is "a much stronger frequency" than it's predecessor I suspect the fella doesn't know much about RF, and to be fair he does say it's all new to him at the start. With smart meters energy firms will amend tariffs to suit them not you; well yes, isn't that what they do now? Seems to hugely conflate and confuse smart meters, 5G and IoT.

100% behind critical thinking but I think that covers critical evalutaion of information and it's source, and being acutely aware of confirmation bias.
Quite so Rob, I picked that one up too. I guess not everybody is fully conversant with RF Terminology. To me, and I accept I may have viewed this differently to others, this particular video was saying go out and research for yourselves. True, the slant is that there is a perceived threat. The major concern was the speaker in the video saying things like rolling it out without testing to see if it was harmful and making billions from it. Now, invasion of privacy aside (I too am not that concerned about this aspect, yet) I don't quite get why we need this Internet of things, the whole smart meter roll out has had advert after advert on TV and radio that seem to suggest that the average householder has no comprehension that running electrical (or gas) appliances and lights costs them money and that they've been struggling in the dark reading their meter every day just to get a grip on this rather than working out that turning a few lights off is going to save a few quid. I understand we are not all made equal and that there are people in society that need to watch the pennies more than the rest of us but really? Don't you find it a little odd that all this is being rolled out to help consumers budget? It's like the baker saying to his customer 'you've only got 10 to dinner this evening so you don't need a dozen rolls'.

Ok, those who've had a smart meter fitted (I know you're out there), how much has it actually saved you, and how much easier has your life been personally since it was fitted?

To clarify, I haven't made up my mind on this yet, although I'll not be getting a smart meter, I'm going to look into it further.

Oh, lastly, the plant dyeing off round the smart meter was,…interesting to say the least.
 

clivehorridge

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And how do we determine what is credible? When this video starts saying 5G is "a much stronger frequency" than it's predecessor I suspect the fella doesn't know much about RF, and to be fair he does say it's all new to him at the start. With smart meters energy firms will amend tariffs to suit them not you; well yes, isn't that what they do now? Seems to hugely conflate and confuse smart meters, 5G and IoT.

100% behind critical thinking but I think that covers critical evalutaion of information and it's source, and being acutely aware of confirmation bias.
As you’ve acknowledged Rob, the guy admits it’s all fairly new to him, likewise with 99.9% of the world population! That’s my main gripe, the total lack of properly broadcast information.

“Leccy” and “Gaz” may be cute and harmless characters, but there’s no attempt to publicize the bigger picture.

Clearly Tom Wheeler doesn’t give a sh!t whether the use of 5G and higher power microwave transmissions have any harmful effects, advocating their use without testing and “bothersome” red-tape.

Who cares if he doesn’t?

I never want to stand in the way of progress, but I do fear that the pure money incentive of modern technology is not enough. A userped “compulsory” implantation of one of these smart meters into your household on the feeble pretext that it will (only) benefit you by “taming” Leccy & Gaz (pesky little critters as they may be) is a disgrace IMO, if we’re to have them, we have the right to know what they do and what the consequences may be to their host, especially when one of the public driving forces behind them openly declares he doesn’t give a f**k about safety and their effects.
 

StarCruiser

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Probably worth having a read about how quickly microwave radiation degrades in very short distances. A good idea not to strap your IoT toaster and kettle to your face though.
Any radiation propagation i seem to remember is an inverse square law isn't it? At 1x distance the area is 1x1, at three times the distance the area is 3x3 and therefore a 9th the power.

I think the thing is that there's going to need to be retransmission and amplification through the smart meter much like a repeater, in order for the weak signals from inside the home to be boosted outside (in the US style installation anyway) to reach the many extra 5G towers as the signal doesn't travel well over long distances.
 
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clivehorridge

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Quite so Rob, I picked that one up too. I guess not everybody is fully conversant with RF Terminology. To me, and I accept I may have viewed this differently to others, this particular video was saying go out and research for yourselves. True, the slant is that there is a perceived threat. The major concern was the speaker in the video saying things like rolling it out without testing to see if it was harmful and making billions from it. Now, invasion of privacy aside (I too am not that concerned about this aspect, yet) I don't quite get why we need this Internet of things, the whole smart meter roll out has had advert after advert on TV and radio that seem to suggest that the average householder has no comprehension that running electrical (or gas) appliances and lights costs them money and that they've been struggling in the dark reading their meter every day just to get a grip on this rather than working out that turning a few lights off is going to save a few quid. I understand we are not all made equal and that there are people in society that need to watch the pennies more than the rest of us but really? Don't you find it a little odd that all this is being rolled out to help consumers budget? It's like the baker saying to his customer 'you've only got 10 to dinner this evening so you don't need a dozen rolls'.

Ok, those who've had a smart meter fitted (I know you're out there), how much has it actually saved you, and how much easier has your life been personally since it was fitted?

To clarify, I haven't made up my mind on this yet, although I'll not be getting a smart meter, I'm going to look into it further.

Oh, lastly, the plant dyeing off round the smart meter was,…interesting to say the least.
Yep, I’m wondering if that’s a deliberate “plant” within the vid, or a real consequence of the meter! :lol: TBH, the climbing plant close to my gas central heating exhaust flue doesn’t look too healthy either, but at least I know why that is!
 
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Rob Cowell

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Any radiation propagation i seem to remember is an inverse square law isn't it? At 1x distance the area is 1x1, at three times the distance the area is 3x3 and therefore a 9th the power.

I think the thing is that there's going to need to be retransmission and amplification through the smart meter much like a repeater, in order for the weak signals from inside the home to be boosted outside (in the US style installation anyway) to reach the many extra 5G towers as the signal doesn't travel well over long distances.
I think the fag packet figure for phones is 2% of radiation left 20cm from the device. So on my fag packet I reckon I can have 50 phones 20cm away from me cooking my brain at the same rate as being on the phone. I can't envisgae ever having that many IoT devices in that proximity, not for a very long time at least.

The transmission range degradation is not (I believe) related to the radiation calculations. What very high frequencies do badly is travel round or though objects, so yes there will need to be more repeaters, but the same laws apply to degrading radiation. I would be much more worried about being in an area with radon underground.

IoT devices will not be transmitting all the time. In fact most won't be transmitting much at all. There is only so much your kettle and fridge can talk about.

I did some work with smart meters a couple of years ago. We were looking at how smart meters can be used to differentiate providers based on what they can do with the information. The box that detects how much power is being used wasn't very interesting to me, although it was to network planners. I was much more interested in being able to switch off the gas when a smoke or heat detector was triggered. Turning on the lights between rooms people were in and exit points, knowing someone was probably in a room because the TV was on. Detecting abnormal utility usage, why hasn't my elderly relative made their cup of tea yet today? Why haven't they opened their IoT pill box? There's a lot of really nice use cases out there.

I think concerns about who owns what data is more useful to look at.
 

StarCruiser

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I think the fag packet figure for phones is 2% of radiation left 20cm from the device. So on my fag packet I reckon I can have 50 phones 20cm away from me cooking my brain at the same rate as being on the phone. I can't envisgae ever having that many IoT devices in that proximity, not for a very long time at least.

The transmission range degradation is not (I believe) related to the radiation calculations. What very high frequencies do badly is travel round or though objects, so yes there will need to be more repeaters, but the same laws apply to degrading radiation. I would be much more worried about being in an area with radon underground.

IoT devices will not be transmitting all the time. In fact most won't be transmitting much at all. There is only so much your kettle and fridge can talk about.

I did some work with smart meters a couple of years ago. We were looking at how smart meters can be used to differentiate providers based on what they can do with the information. The box that detects how much power is being used wasn't very interesting to me, although it was to network planners. I was much more interested in being able to switch off the gas when a smoke or heat detector was triggered. Turning on the lights between rooms people were in and exit points, knowing someone was probably in a room because the TV was on. Detecting abnormal utility usage, why hasn't my elderly relative made their cup of tea yet today? Why haven't they opened their IoT pill box? There's a lot of really nice use cases out there.

I think concerns about who owns what data is more useful to look at.
So how does all this happen when your electricity is off? For example when the meter tails that the smart meter installer is not allowed to tighten, burn away the main switch after the smart meter is fitted?

And why do we need these things? To stop actually visiting that elderly relative to talk to them and see that they've taken their pills. And how many times will the gas need to be reset because the toast got singed. And how do we know which lights to switch on towards the exit? I leave the TV on when I go to the loo. What's wrong with a smoke alarm with a built in light and visiting that elderly relative for a chat and a cuppa!

If you did all this work with smart meters and you know all this stuff about what they are going to be used for, why aren't we being told that that is what they are for, and not being fed some garbage about standing on your head to read the meter or make 14 meals for 10p?
 
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Rob Cowell

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So how does all this happen when your electricity is off? For example when the meter tails that the smart meter installer is not allowed to tighten, burn away the main switch after the smart meter is fitted?

And why do we need these things? To stop actually visiting that elderly relative to talk to them and see that they've taken their pills. And how many times will the gas need to be reset because the toast got singed. And how do we know which lights to switch on towards the exit? I leave the TV on when I go to the loo. What's wrong with a smoke alarm with a built in light and visiting that elderly relative for a chat and a cuppa!

If you did all this work with smart meters and you know all this stuff about what they are going to be used for, why aren't we being told that that is what they are for, and not being fed some garbage about standing on your head to read the meter or make 14 meals for 10p?
No electric, no Smart Meter. No IoT. Unless, err, batteries? Nipped to the toilet, I know you turned the light on there. But we can just install proximity devices I happened to be looking at how we could utilise existing devices to get a good idea of proximity and get devices from different manufacturers communicating to different standards to hook up.

Old people, yes, go and see them. 100%. Only my mother lives 150 miles away. My grandmother 200 miles in the other direction. I can phone my grandmother who can swear blind she's taken her tablets when she hasn't.

Smart meters were mandated by the government, I believe to make it easier for pay as you go customers to top up, and to give more info to general consumers to help them understand how much they are using, rather than waiting to see a figure every 3 months. Electricity providers have to offer them. If they have to provide them they might as well look for competitive advantages the technology could offer, because as a provider if I don't look you can bet my competitors are. Hence research into the wider IoT sphere. I don't think it's a secret, but the providers probably push the consumer benefit rather than the network planning and IoT futures stuff, especially because IoT definitely scares some people; and in respect of data I think they are right to consider where the technology is going.

One thing we can say with absolute certainty is there will always be resistance to new technology.
 

StarCruiser

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Like Clive, I have no desire to resist new technology as long as it is a benefit.

I just don't believe the selling campaign that is so pushy. There's been more about pushing people, not just offering them, to have smart meters than anything else I can think of.

Pay as you go customer's (who pay the highest tariffs BTW) are usually those who are finding it hard to budget but their meter told them how much credit there was on the key. It's just a very weak argument by the providers to install something for free, and we all know free has to be paid for somehow.
 

Rob Cowell

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The pay as you go drive was primarily to open the tech to allowing remote top ups. Transfer money online and have it immidiately credited on the meter, rather than finding a shop open at 11pm when your power runs out. I think the smart meters are much more convenient to read because you can place a reader anywhere in the house. I assume the electricty companies are pushing them because they have to meet the rollout target set by the government as part of their license.

If you don't see the benefit then say no thanks. I don't believe any company is mandating them? I haven't even been contacted about them, or if I have I've missed it.

Back to the video we have picked one tiny aspect of it. A smart meter today is a single IoT device that does not use 5G.
 
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StarCruiser

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The pay as you go drive was primarily to open the tech to allowing remote top ups. Transfer money online and have it immidiately credited on the meter, rather than finding a shop open at 11pm when your power runs out. I think the smart meters are much more convenient to read because you can place a reader anywhere in the house. I assume the electricty companies are pushing them because they have to meet the rollout target set by the government as part of their license.

If you don't see the benefit then say no thanks. I don't believe any company is mandating them? I haven't even been contacted about them, or if I have I've missed it.

Back to the video we have picked one tiny aspect of it. A smart meter today is a single IoT device that does not use 5G.
Are you saying they will never use 5G?
 
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