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Bizarre clonk / jolt from the front end of Fiery!!!
- Thread starter sae70
- Start date
Looks like all you need is a new carrier, or the gears from inside a carrier, like what's left over when someone fits an ARB 
unless you forgot to take pictures of R&P damage 
unless you forgot to take pictures of R&P damage 
And I have such an item, unless I am much mistaken. I'll rummage tomorrow.
Really surprised though that you got the diff out with the flange on. There was no way in Hades that mine was coming out.
It might mean that someone needs to nip round to TonyP's and look under LB to see if it says R17 unless I can find a pic somewhere. But mine was the same truck as yours Steve.
So If I have that lot in the garage - things are looking up for a change!
Chris
EDIT - Best I can find
Really surprised though that you got the diff out with the flange on. There was no way in Hades that mine was coming out.
It might mean that someone needs to nip round to TonyP's and look under LB to see if it says R17 unless I can find a pic somewhere. But mine was the same truck as yours Steve.
So If I have that lot in the garage - things are looking up for a change!
Chris
EDIT - Best I can find
Yep all side gear & planetary gear damage 
Most of the damage is to the off side, side gear so kind of goes along with making the most noise when turning right. I need to give it all a really good clean & a proper look see, hopefully tmrz. It would appear @ first glance that the R&P are OK, all be it that there's loads of metal flakes & lumps everyware 
The pinion bearing is a bit notchy but then after a quick spray with brake cleaner a lot better 
Only a good clean will confirm 
In your photo of Lil-Blue's front axle housing Chris, I can see that the third member mount is still fitted, I removed Fiery's before droping the housing & like I say it just fell straight down with very little resistance
Most of the damage is to the off side, side gear so kind of goes along with making the most noise when turning right. I need to give it all a really good clean & a proper look see, hopefully tmrz. It would appear @ first glance that the R&P are OK, all be it that there's loads of metal flakes & lumps everyware The pinion bearing is a bit notchy but then after a quick spray with brake cleaner a lot better Only a good clean will confirm In your photo of Lil-Blue's front axle housing Chris, I can see that the third member mount is still fitted, I removed Fiery's before droping the housing & like I say it just fell straight down with very little resistance
au contraireChris said:
I'am certainly very interested in the offer you made of Lil-Blues old side gears & planetary gears I was going to give Fierys poor old diff a good clean & inspection before committing, just to be as sure about all of the other component parts as one could be before wasting any time going in the wrong direction 
I'll be in touch very soon I hope
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Andrew Prince
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2010
- Messages
- 2,232
Chris even has it precoated in Lincomb quick-set so that it'll fit straight in with the rest of the undercarriage
At least you've confirmed the problem now and you didn't take the diff off for nothing...
At least you've confirmed the problem now and you didn't take the diff off for nothing...
Chris & myself have exchanged a couple of PM's this evening as you would expect
In one of them he says;
I got a chance to dump all the bits into a Tuff Tub half full of Diesel early this evening for a good clean & this is what I've found.
Nice photo here of the Pinion, note the gaps between the rollers in the bearing
The flutes of the Pinion @ the face/crown are all a little rough/burred to the touch
Couple of photos here showing the worst wear/damage to the Pinion
There's a bit of damage to the inner bearing cage (can't see the outer bearing so can't comment on it)
There's some metal fragments trapped between the inner & outer pinion bearings that must have entered via the oil-way I guess
I've managed to get these four out by rotating the pinion flange until they are the right orientation to pass between the rollers of the inner bearing & fall out. There's at least one more in there that is proving a little less easy to remove with this method than its buddies!
This is the worst damage that I can find on the Crown wheel, otherwise this looks fine
The Mag drain plug has taken a few knocks by the looks of it
The carrier itself looks pretty beaten up as well
Oh & then there's the side gears
The carrier bearings aren’t looking to bad though
I would be interested in peoples thoughts
In one of them he says;
Mmmm..........Well lets have a look, shall weChris said:
I got a chance to dump all the bits into a Tuff Tub half full of Diesel early this evening for a good clean & this is what I've found.
Nice photo here of the Pinion, note the gaps between the rollers in the bearing
The flutes of the Pinion @ the face/crown are all a little rough/burred to the touch
Couple of photos here showing the worst wear/damage to the Pinion
There's a bit of damage to the inner bearing cage (can't see the outer bearing so can't comment on it)
There's some metal fragments trapped between the inner & outer pinion bearings that must have entered via the oil-way I guess
I've managed to get these four out by rotating the pinion flange until they are the right orientation to pass between the rollers of the inner bearing & fall out. There's at least one more in there that is proving a little less easy to remove with this method than its buddies!
This is the worst damage that I can find on the Crown wheel, otherwise this looks fine
The Mag drain plug has taken a few knocks by the looks of it
The carrier itself looks pretty beaten up as well
Oh & then there's the side gears
The carrier bearings aren’t looking to bad though
I would be interested in peoples thoughts
I wonder what part failed first?
Mine was the pinion bearing, that seems to be where the most load is situated and its only supported on one side.
Yours on the other hand has plenty of oil so possibly one of the centre gears lost a tooth during hard offroad loading and the resulting shrapnel bounced around inside the diff causing all the ricochet damage to the magnetic sump plug etc.
My initial thought would be to replace the pinion bearings they have suffered a lot of damage and any slack/roughness in them will be seriously detrimental to the overall health of your diff.
But once you start that down that road then its probably better to get one from a breaker and check it for damage then install it with fresh seals if its OK.
Mine was the pinion bearing, that seems to be where the most load is situated and its only supported on one side.
Yours on the other hand has plenty of oil so possibly one of the centre gears lost a tooth during hard offroad loading and the resulting shrapnel bounced around inside the diff causing all the ricochet damage to the magnetic sump plug etc.
My initial thought would be to replace the pinion bearings they have suffered a lot of damage and any slack/roughness in them will be seriously detrimental to the overall health of your diff.
But once you start that down that road then its probably better to get one from a breaker and check it for damage then install it with fresh seals if its OK.
Steve, your best option is to swap that entire unit.
But, as you have already found, getting one of those isn't proving easy. So the only other option is to rebuild that one. In terms of plan A I don' think that there is much by way of advice except you don't know what condition the internals will be in or how well it's been looked after by the POs. The front diff on a road going 90 doesn't work very hard at all. Given how tricky it is to get at the oil filler etc, it's doubtful that many owners ever venture near it. But they are happy enough as long as there is some oil to paddle in. I think buying a complete unit, then stripping it and rebuilding it would be nuts. So it really needs to be in a position to slot straight in with new outer seals in my view. But knowing the history isn't really going to be possible. But we know that you use your Collie as nature intended and for peace of mine, I do think that a proper rebuild of the front end would be best.
But that would need to be a proper strip and fit in my opinion. I'm not a gear expert, but those small bits of damage don't look too bad for an unlocked front diff. Perhaps worth taking a file and deburring any bits that stand proud. As for bearings etc, I would probably replace them all. New crush tube too.
Given how easy it is to swap it out, you might decide to give it a thorough cleaning, pick the bits out of the teeth, put it together and give it a go for the moment. Whilst you keep your peepers open for another. I have no doubt that it'll run with the carrier swapped. Just used on the road it'll probably run forever!
Problem is the cost starts to mount with new bearings etc. If you can get them matched up by a bearing specialist to avoid Mr T prices then it may work out significantly cheaper. So:
Total replacement
Rebuild
Patch up and cross fingers
Chris
But, as you have already found, getting one of those isn't proving easy. So the only other option is to rebuild that one. In terms of plan A I don' think that there is much by way of advice except you don't know what condition the internals will be in or how well it's been looked after by the POs. The front diff on a road going 90 doesn't work very hard at all. Given how tricky it is to get at the oil filler etc, it's doubtful that many owners ever venture near it. But they are happy enough as long as there is some oil to paddle in. I think buying a complete unit, then stripping it and rebuilding it would be nuts. So it really needs to be in a position to slot straight in with new outer seals in my view. But knowing the history isn't really going to be possible. But we know that you use your Collie as nature intended and for peace of mine, I do think that a proper rebuild of the front end would be best.
But that would need to be a proper strip and fit in my opinion. I'm not a gear expert, but those small bits of damage don't look too bad for an unlocked front diff. Perhaps worth taking a file and deburring any bits that stand proud. As for bearings etc, I would probably replace them all. New crush tube too.
Given how easy it is to swap it out, you might decide to give it a thorough cleaning, pick the bits out of the teeth, put it together and give it a go for the moment. Whilst you keep your peepers open for another. I have no doubt that it'll run with the carrier swapped. Just used on the road it'll probably run forever!
Problem is the cost starts to mount with new bearings etc. If you can get them matched up by a bearing specialist to avoid Mr T prices then it may work out significantly cheaper. So:
Total replacement
Rebuild
Patch up and cross fingers
Chris
The carrier damage looks cosmetic and you'll probably get away with the R&P damage. Cheapest option is take the pinion out, give the bearings and housing a good clean, put it back together with a new pinion seal, swap the carrier side & pinion gears from another carrier and refit. After you clean each bearing give it a good dose of oil and test it back in its race to feel for notchiness - any that are still notchy may be a problem but having to buy bearings may make it a write off when you do the sums.
I think that it was the drivers side, side gear to fail first & now that I've had time to consider it I believe that the damage was done on my trip to Wales while driving a very onerousness stepped climb! To be fair to Yotas engineering I've then gone on to use the truck @ Lincomb & in Shropshire, so not only giving her plenty of off road stick, but driving in excess of 1000 road miles as well!Bounder said:
Chris said:
This is where I'am at this moment in time really, I've had a good chat with Chris on the phone (hope you've found your Blackberry m8) & he has sent me all of the left over parts that he had from out of Lil-Blues diff when he fitted the locker (carrier c/w side & sun gears, side bearings & cups etc). Once I get the last tooth fragment out from between the two Pinion bearings a quick but thoughtful rebuild using Lil-Blues old bits & a smallJon Wildsmith said:
'er or two to get Fiery back on the road, hopefully buying me some time to find the right replacement complete front axle housing & diff.Lil-Blues diff carrier & Fierys are what would be termed two pin, but I've read that these are notorious for failiure while searching for info on the web and that as such Yota upgraded them to 4 pin. My first thoughts were to try to obtain one such item & then work towards an 4.3 ratio front diff rebuild using a 4 pin carrier, but as hard as I've looked I can't find any evidence of this upgrade even using ToyoDIY.
It's not that I haven't been offered many diffs either (mostly the wrong ratio thus far) but I just want longer to become more familiar with all of the options, so fingers crossed that this union of Lil-Blue & Fiery lets call her Lil-Purply for now
Is a happy one Just for interest here is a list of what I've been offered in the way of axles to date
£160 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - (incorrect ratio for me 'R56' so no good)
£250 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - (incorrect ratio for me 'R16' so no good)
£280 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - (incorrect ratio for me, man said it was an 'R57'
so no good)£358 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - 2 month warranty (correct ratio for me 'R17' but not confirmed)
£480 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - 3 month warranty (correct ratio for me 'R17' but not confirmed)
£576 inclusive of VAT & post - RECON xchange - 6 month warranty (correct ratio for me 'R17' but not confirmed)
£600 inclusive of VAT & post - RECON xchange - 12 month warranty (correct ratio for me 'R17' and confirmed) - I'm very tempted by this one
£909 inclusive of VAT & post - USED - 2 month warranty (ratio not confirmed)
SO, just spent a couple of weeks away with the family in the south (Devon & Cornwall), got back V' late Sunday night / Monday morning. My wife’s parents live in south Devon & my father lives in Falmouth Spent the two weeks between the two @ theme parks or on the beach or watching the Red Arrows (Falmouth week) with fireworks on my dads boat, cream teas & drinking
Just before we left for Devon I stumbled over a chap breaking a LWB Collie/Prado on eBay with an alleged 140,000Kms on the clock, so I gave him a call to enquire about the front axle 'Yes' he says 'I still have it, would you like it?'
Cut a long story short after confirming that the label on the diff could not be read (all rubbed out
) he confirms that the axle code on the VIN plate suggests that the diff ratio is the one that I'm after So I bought it using PayPal, to be collected from Beaminster about 40min from my wife’s parents house in Devon. I also bought both front drive shafts & all of the passenger side battery components that I don't have (plastic tray, clamp & hook bolt) all for the sum of £140.00 
And here it is
Pulled the mag' drain plug for a quick look, looks promissing I think
Only way to really confirm it's the correct ratio is to crack it open & count the teeth
More to follow
Spent the two weeks between the two @ theme parks or on the beach or watching the Red Arrows (Falmouth week) with fireworks on my dads boat, cream teas & drinking Just before we left for Devon I stumbled over a chap breaking a LWB Collie/Prado on eBay with an alleged 140,000Kms on the clock, so I gave him a call to enquire about the front axle
'Yes' he says 'I still have it, would you like it?'Cut a long story short after confirming that the label on the diff could not be read (all rubbed out
) he confirms that the axle code on the VIN plate suggests that the diff ratio is the one that I'm after So I bought it using PayPal, to be collected from Beaminster about 40min from my wife’s parents house in Devon. I also bought both front drive shafts & all of the passenger side battery components that I don't have (plastic tray, clamp & hook bolt) all for the sum of £140.00 And here it is
Pulled the mag' drain plug for a quick look, looks promissing I think
Only way to really confirm it's the correct ratio is to crack it open & count the teeth
More to follow
Cracked it open & counted the teeth
A little bit of correction fluid
and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8....................................29, 30, 31........................
A bit more correction fluid
and 1, 2, 3, 4.......6, 7.....................
A little bit of correction fluid
and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8....................................29, 30, 31........................
A bit more correction fluid
and 1, 2, 3, 4.......6, 7.....................
silvercruiser
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2010
- Messages
- 3,368
Soon be back greenlaning
Joe
I do hope so, it's been two months up on axle stands nowsilvercruiser said:
I'm going to make a start on getting my new, second hand axle fitted today & while I've got it apart I thought I'd give it all a good internal flush through (read clean) with some Diesel before putting it back together. Do you think that this will be OK
Cleaning it with Diesel that is Once it's all back together & back on the truck I intend to use synthetic gear oil in the long term, but in the short term as I've got about six liters of bog standard EP90 in the shed I'm going to run with this for a couple of hundred miles in case of any troubles, oil leaks etc. So this should remove any Diesel residue I'dve thought Wouldn't you edit - Or should I just skip the clean, put it back together & get on with it
You wouldn't give it a Diesel flush if doing an oil change would you Bit confused as what to do for the best now 
