Bizarre clonk / jolt from the front end of Fiery!!!

[BobMurphy]

I'd give it a good clean just to make sure there's nothing lurking in there.

Diesel will mix with the oil so if you remove as much as you can with rags the residue won't affect the oil to any appreciable extent.

If you have oil heating, use that instead of diesel as 28-sec heating oil (i.e. kerosene) will evaporate. 32-sec heating oil is more like diesel. Its a bit cheaper too - even at £0.60/litre ( to think I used to spend £360 on 3,300 litres).

Bob.

 

[sae70]

Thanks for your reply Bob It gave me peace of mind while pouring Diesel everywhere

New second hand diff & housing all clean now, just needs bolting back together with fresh mastic seal later on today before being ready to bolt back into Fiery tomorrow, weather permiting Heavens just opened up here so a quick dash round getting all back into shed before getting to wet

 

[sae70]

All clean now

And back together

Back in tomorrow, fingers crossed & weather permitting. I'm going to go with the seals that it came with for now, take a punt you may say, nothing ventured nothing gained! They look OK & have cleaned up well with no nicks or tears The only thing I'm a little concerned about is the half shaft bearing as it feels a little rougher than the one in my original axle that has eaten itself chucking side gear fragments through the bearing! Not easy to say for sure as it's a dry bearing @ the mo' having just been cleaned with diesel so only time & a little oil will tell

 

[BobMurphy]

Looking good

Bob.

 

[sae70]

Looking good

Cheers Bob

Well the weather was permitting and so after its clean, back in my £120 scrapper front axle went

New oil

While the front prop was off I serviced the slip joint & re-greased the UJ's

After a clean up I went straight out in her around 10ish Sunday evening for a twenty mile trip up & down the A12. Stopping every 30 seconds for a look underneath expecting to see an oil leak from any of the oil seals or the nob end of a tube of gasket mastic that had been in my shed for a couple of years that I used to put it back together with but nothing The most exciting thing was that I stumbled over a couple of army lads in a 110 LandRover with the bonnet up (water pump gone)! I offered them a tow back to Colchester Barracks but they declined as they had already waited two hours up till then for the AA to turn out I wouldn't say that all is well with the new scrapper axle! There is some bearing noise for sure! But which of the five it is, who knows I've covered around 60 miles now & the noise is still there So I'm going to remove the drivers side half shaft tube with bearing from off of the scrapper axle & fit Fiery's original as I said earlier in the thread the bearing in Fiery's original half shaft tube did feel better than the one in the scrapper axle half shaft tube. If this doesn't cure it then I have no idea of how to identify which of the other four bearings in the axle it could be Oh well fingers crossed that Fiery's original half shaft tube c/w bearing cures it

 

[TonyP]

Nice job Steven, pity about the bearing noise, but that is simple compared to what you have just done

 

[Chris]

Might not be bearings of course. It could be the engagement of the pinion and ring gear. Taking it all to bits might mean that some tolerances might have changed?

Not sure I quite followed the thread. This is the new complete diff that you took to bits and put back together? Why didn't you just stick it straight on, Steve. You could have worked out the ratio by counting input revs and output, yes? Is the noise continuous, speed related and power on power off affected. Jon could, I'm sure' give a diagnosis on with further info.

Chris

 

[sae70]

Might not be bearings of course. It could be the engagement of the pinion and ring gear. Taking it all to bits might mean that some tolerances might have changed?

Not sure I quite followed the thread. This is the new complete diff that you took to bits and put back together? Why didn't you just stick it straight on, Steve. You could have worked out the ratio by counting input revs and output, yes? Is the noise continuous, speed related and power on power off affected. Jon could, I'm sure' give a diagnosis on with further info.

Chris

Hi-ya Chris, nice holiday

Yes this is the new, second hand (from a 140000Km Prado) complete front axle that I paid £120 for from a Mitsi breakers in Beaminster. He also threw in both the front drive shafts & all of the left hand battery tray gear I got Lil-Blues old carrier & side gears that you posted out to me as you know. But I'm still struggling to get that last side gear tooth out from between Fierys original axle pinion bearings without removing the pinion & then the resulting new crush collar & backlash set up. Then this came up on the ebay so I went for it Couldn't not @ that price I split it apart as I wanted to be certain of the ratio before investing the time in fitting it & also so I could check its condition compared to my original one, oh & give it a good clean It was while doing this that I made a mental note about the condition of the half shaft bearing compared to my original. Maybe I should have changed it then but I thought it would better than the one that had had all those side gear teeth rattle around it. No mind though if there's a break in the weather over this weekend I'll swap them out & see what I have then. Should only take a hour or so using the top wishbone bolt trick that you mentioned T'was a great way of quickly removing the drive shaft without to much bother I wouldn't have thought that any tolerances have changed due to me taking it apart as I didn't remove any shims or the pinion nut or drop the whole lot on the floor or the pinion flange I'm sure that the noise is bearing related, you can feel it in the steering more than you can hear it. It's more prevalent at lower speeds (20 to 40) but seems to become smoother @ higher speeds (70 to 90). It's always there though & is not a clonk or power related Interesting what you say about the engagement of the pinion and ring gear, I've always wondered if there's anything to be gained from resetting the diff backlash on higher mileage vehicles due to wear Maybe a 'Q' for the Guru's among us

 

[Chris]

Paging Mr Wildsmith....

C

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

I've always wondered if there's anything to be gained from resetting the diff backlash on higher mileage vehicles due to wear

Yes, better for the gears, better for the bearings and better for the overall strength of the diff The noise is unlikely to be caused by your work on it and both gear and pinion bearing noise tends to be variable by the power being applied which yours doesn't sound like? Pretty good chance it's the bearing you're planning to replace anyway or maybe nothing to do with the diff and one of your UJ's is upset or too much grease in the slip joint?

 

[sae70]

OK, so last Monday I stripped out & swapped the scrapper half shaft tube for Fiery's original one, sorry for the delay in posting but such a busy family life these days

Tool out ready for action

Oil drained

Mmmmm............I love the smell of cat pizz in the mornings

Nice & clear still (about 100miles done)

No metal swarf on the plug

Jacked up

Wheel off

Battery out

Odd electrical thing removed from inner wing What is that There's one on the other side as well Air bag thingy maybe

Top wishbone bolt removed as per Chris's advice, top tip this one, thanks m8

And Bobs your Mothers Uncle

Don't forget to disconnect the ABS wiring & pull the flexi brake pipe retaining 'C' clip thing off to allow extra length

And out comes the drive shaft

Now out of interest & for the anoraks out there To this point inclusive of getting my tools & jack out ready for use has taken 32 minutes

Removed the four bolts holding the half shaft tube to the third member

And BINGO! There it is off

I had to remove the right hand front axle mount completely & remove the left side axle mount main bolt to allow enough twist on the axle to get the top two bolts out

Over to my front axle spares box

Out with my original half shaft tube & a quick compare, it's really marginal between them, but the original one is defo slightly smoother so on with the job in hand

Cleaned the mating faces

And back on

All back together

And out for a test drive

Verdict, no change She still has the same bearing noise I'm a bit frustrated really & not sure what way to go next

Happy Days

Took her for a drive around an empty car park, around in circles, left hand down, right hand down. Then same in reverse, power on power off, fast straight line acceleration. No knocks or clonks or jolts If its a wheel bearing, a mount, a 'UJ', a CV then its keeping itself well hidden

Any advice much appreciated

 

[sae70]

Had a long chat with someone on the phone this morning regards my bearing noise & have decided to have a go @ removing the front prop shaft & going for a spin with the center diff locked. If the noise still there then can discount UJ's as the cause, but if gone then not sure what this will tell me as power/loading on the diff will clearly be different It is a dililama Toying with the idea of just using till the component fails & then have an easy diagnosis It's a real pain, I used ToyoDiy to price all of the diff bearings, seals, crush collar & shims, £590.00 + VAT

 

[Chris]

Steve there was nothing wrong with the diff bearings that you got (robbed, stole, conned ) from me. Sorry I couldn't find the outer race to the second one. I'll keep looking and if I find it, I'll send it to you. Running with no prop might tell you something for sure. It's a good place to start. Hopefully it's not in your transfer box!

Did the bearings all feel OK in your hand? Worn bearings aren't that difficult to diagnose really. I share you feelings though, I hate noises that shouldn't be there. I've just swapped my front diff over to the JW one and surprisingly it's gone from being virtually silent to having some whine on power around 60 ish. Now I know that it's got all new bearings and the engagement is perfect, but it's still slightly audible. Still, Planet Rock soon cures that. But maybe the bearings in yours aren't worn. Perhaps it's a combination of things together.

Is oil choice critical here? I stick standard 80/90 in mine as per the handbook. It's not made from Unicorn's tears or the dew from a tiger's brow. Perhaps higher quality (more expensive) oil makes a difference. I have to say that in my old 90 the front diff oil used to look like new whenever I checked it. I guess it doesn't work very hard. But the 80, that's a different story. It's in 10 mins and looks pretty awful. I have flushed out my axle, so to speak, to get the years of dirt and deposits out. But still the oil seems to change quite quickly. Is there an additive perhaps? Perhaps Slick 50 for diffs?

Chris

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

Any progress with this Steven, what happened with the front prop removed?

Was your front diff noisy when it was on GW Chris?

 

[Chris]

Hi Jon, do you know, I can't remember actually. It was on there for such a short time. IIRC it was slightly audible which made me think that it was probably the transfer box. The original diff if you remember was awful. But when I swapped the transfer to this new one, the front diff was silent so it clearly wasn't the transfer box after all. Interesting that when I swapped the front JW diff into the Silver one, the noise came back. Now it's not terrible by any means, but you can hear it clearly at around 60, when you let off, it goes quiet. Can't explain it really. But I do wonder if 'better' oil or some enhancing product might make a difference. The diff felt like silk to turn by hand. No question of taking it out again. I bet with the window open, or with the radio on, I'll never hear it. The diff in Old GW was really really annoying on a long trip. This is merely mildly interesting. Nothing more (at the moment).

Worth noting that I now have a perfect front and rear diff set in 4.3. There does seem to be more free play in the front one that I took out, to the one that you kindly built for me, with only 70k on it, but it was completely noise free if that makes any sense.

Chris

 

[sae70]

Sorry Been a while I only just managed getting around to whacking off my front prop this afternoon

Steve there was nothing wrong with the diff bearings that you got (robbed, stole, conned ) from me

Did you not get my email with those winning Lotto numbers as agreed

So laid under the truck this afternoon, 14mm spanners in hand ready to remove the front prop when a thought about something that Chris said played upon my mind about additives I remembered a Golf GTI that I sold some years back that would not have sold if it had not been for a squirt of Molyslip gear oil additive into the gearbox With this thought I jumped out from under the truck hopped in & went for another drive trying to get my best feel for the noise/rumble/vibration & while out spent £11 (well £10.99) on a tube of molecular engineering Came home and squirted the whole tube into the front diff, enough to treat twice the amount of oil in the diff.

Result after some 12 miles or so of dual carriageway & country road driving, no change! Still exactly the same noise/feeling coming up the steering column Now I may be dreaming this, but the anomaly appears to be better when left hand down & worse when right hand down, but it really is extraordinary marginal & I may just be hallucinating Anyways I'm kind of hoping that this little additive experiment has the noise/feeling placed outside of the front axle as I would have thought that there would be some kind of notable change in the anomaly if it had been in the diff with the addition of the additive, wouldn't you So back home again & off with the front prop, but before this I removed the slip yoke grease nipple to check that the slip joint was not over greased & so under pressure & pressing on the pinion flange, but all is well there So off with the prop, centre diff locked & out on another test drive Result, still no change! So it's not the front prop causing the anomaly I also went to a local empty large car park & drove around in circles left hand down, right hand down, forwards, backwards, straight line hard acceleration then quickly off the gas then straight back on Results, nothing No knocks, clonks, jolts, nothing just this feeling of an unhappy bearing somewhere coming up through the steering The only other thing to note is that this feeling of impending doom is at its worst between 28 & 32 MPH, but over this speed it gets better & better the faster you go

Any ideas

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

The fact you say it's coming up the steering column makes me wonder if it's the diff causing it unless it was really shagged / lots of play. You sure it's not just your tyres

 

[sae70]

I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or continue on from the end of this,but hey-ho this seems to be the most appropriate place for it

So taking you all back to August 2011 following on from me replacing Fiery's destroyed front diff with one from a scrapper and then changing out the short side gear shaft in the pursuit of a small amount of noise coming up the steering to no avail and then going on to purchase a 4 channel electronic stethoscope and spending hours driving around with 4 microphone clipped to different corners and components on the truck. It was decided that there was no real issues with any bearings except for the one in the end of the side gear half shaft tube on the front axle, but even then it was only a guess that this was what may be causing this feeling/noise that I was getting up the the steering.

What did I do about it then I hear you ask, well nowt!! I've just been living with it ever since with many more miles under my belt now and a number of off roading weekends. Before each trip away I lay under the truck and check for any oil leaks, check the oil levels, grease the UJ's, adjust the hand break etc etc etc every single weekend away. So when I removed the belly pans to retrieve some dropped items after fitting the winch and discovered this new oil leak I know that it's very resent and new.

It makes me think 'I wonder if that bearing is finally on its way out, causing this weeping from the oil seal'

Luckily I have a complete spare half shaft tube in the shed, so I got it out last night and had a play with it

This gave me a chance to measure the bearing and to see if it's a job that I can handle myself before Lincomb or do I need to rush it into my mechanics workshop

Good news is that it looks easy enough to handle in ones own shed, so off to Essex Bearings today to see if they can supply me the bearing. It measures 80mmOD x 41.5mmID x 17mmW and is a pretty standard bearing that is except for its size cause if standard it would be 80mmOD x 40mmID x 18mmW and about £14 inclusive of VAT They did give it a good go though, even calling KOYO Europe to see if they could get me one, but no chance!

So I give my local Main Stealer a call. Now ToyoDiy suggests that this part should be about £62.43 + VAT but my main stealer wants £77.86 + VAT! Not a massive difference but enough then I remember talk of a forum friendly Main Dealer Simon Holton, so I give him a call and he wants £66.18 + VAT. Not a massive difference but a saving all the same, but its the oil seal that's got to make one laugh Toyo ££21.95 + VAT, Simon Holton £20.47 + VAT and my local Main Stealer £34.71 + VAT WTF So order placed with Simon

 

[TonyP]

Quick job to do Steven... I've done it once to often now...

 

[sae70]

New bearing and seal came in the post from Simon Holton on Friday