Electrical help please... new(ish) batteries not starting...

[GuyB]

OK, I'm worried. 3 days until I set off on a 12,000k road trip to the Gambia and now this...

I had a problem with batteries dying if I stood the car for more than a few days, but put it down to old, cheap and mismatched batteries.

Replaced with new, decent ones (Varta) last year and in the short term, all was well. Then the problem started again. I only have a crude tester - which I used to isolate the source of the draw, and the dome light/stereo circuit seemed to be the culprit, so I pulled the fuse and fully charged both batteries.

2 weeks standing, and again, it won't start. Charged the batteries, and it still just that Uzi-like clicking... but no turnover. Starts on the button when I jump start from my Touareg.

So I've checked the batteries with a voltmeter, engine off, and they're both showing 15v. With the engine running each battery reads 20v. That seems like a lot of power from the alternator...

It was with my local mechanics for a while and I suspect they may have tried to jump it on the wrong side, and bridged the batteries and various other tricks to try and get it started. Have they cooked something?

 

[Towpack]

15v and 20v respectively with the engine off and running is too high as you state. A faulty voltage regulator could give that sort of voltage with the engine running and this would ruin the batteries quickly but I don't get the 15v reading with the engine stopped. Do you have a 2nd tester to check the readings? Did you check the current drain by disconnecting the main battery terminal or by removing fuses? Some high current circuits (glow plugs etc) do not go through the fuse boxes but have fusible links close to the + terminal on the driver's side battery. I had a similar fault (1HD-FT engine) which turned out to be the air intake heater which uses a fusible link. The owner's handbook does state not to jump to/from the passenger side battery but if the charged battery is connected up with correct polarity I can't see what damage it would do 'cos all you're doing is increasing the capacity of the existing battery, be it the LH or the RH one.

 

[GuyB]

Thanks Towpack. I don't fully understand the 24v starting system - but from what I've read on this forum the batteries are connected in series, but switched to parallel to start. If that's the case, connecting the batteries in parallel with jump leads would create a short, would it not?

Now I think of it - I haven't had it start without a jump since I took it to these guys 2 weeks ago with a flat battery. They charged them but not before trying to jump start it, and probably either with the wrong battery or shorting it. They tested the alternator (brushes, I assume) and said it's fine - but I think just a visual.

So - the non-starting could be down to batteries having been damaged, such that even though they show a high voltage, they can't produce the necessary current? So the first test is to replace the batteries... problem is getting my hands on a voltage regulator in the next 48 hours!

 

[Chris]

Guy this doesn't actually help much but

"I don't fully understand the 24v starting system - but from what I've read on this forum the batteries are connected in series, but switched to parallel to start"

Actually it's the other way around. They're 12v in parallel most of the time but swap to series to give 24v on starting.

 

[StarCruiser]

Guy, to really understand what's going on, you need to get yourself s decent multimeter. You needn't spend a fortune, just get a reasonably good one like this
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/381918428943
for under £30. It's a tool so will be very useful. Then check battery voltage across the terminals at rest and while running and post here. Should be 14.4v running. A faulty alternator along with many other things can drain batteries quite quickly, plus batteries once over discharged can become damaged.

The second thing I would recommend getting is a Ctek battery charger. A MXS 3.8 is a good one and not expensive. This will get each of your batteries into the best condition possible and may reverse some if not all damage.

 

[GuyB]

Chris - yes, sorry that's what I meant... parallel, but connected in series to give 24v to the starter.

StarCruiser - yes I agree, I need a better tool to get to the source of the problem, better still - find a good auto sparky!

My main problem it takes at least a week to get anything in Sweden and we have 2 days. Is the voltage regulator something I can pick up in the local motor factor as a quick fix, or does it need to be a specific part?

 

[Chris]

No it's not. It's mounted inside the alternator. Usually you swap the whole thing. You can get just the regulator but the last one I sourced was from the USA. Here in the UK there are people who can fix alternators but generally they're more mainstream vehicles than these. Getting a new unit would be the simplest but maybe not the fastest. You could have one sent super dooper priority FedEx from somewhere I guess but you'd need to be sure it was the right one. Mussy has a thread running on this subject at the moment.

 

[frank rabbets]

I've often wondered about the "No jump" on the passenger side battery. If you connect a 12 volt battery in parallel with it it should be OK. I think the danger is using the chassis as the earth as then you have a 24 volt potential between the positive and earth on said battery.

 

[Shayne]

Bump start it make sure it is an electric problem .

 

[Julian T]

Regarding sourcing a replacement alternator my mk1 2.0 Rav4 has the same alternator as my 80 series.
I know from personal experience that these trucks are quite sensitive to the volts and amps being right when it comes to starting.

 

[StarCruiser]

I've often wondered about the "No jump" on the passenger side battery. If you connect a 12 volt battery in parallel with it it should be OK. I think the danger is using the chassis as the earth as then you have a 24 volt potential between the positive and earth on said battery.

Exactly right Frank as the general rule/suggestion is to make the final connection on the engine block or somewhere similar away from the possibly gassing battery.

 

[Dave2000]

Just to throw a couple of things into the mix.

The 20v seen on the batteries during running is way too high, in fact the 80 alternator during a regulator fault will only make 18v, so I would agree the 20v seen on your meter suggests a meter fault. The 15v seen at rest might be correct if the batteries have been pushed to 18v, but will diminish a short while later.

Testing batteries is not an exact science, this is made a little more difficult with the system used on the 80, and with most batteries now being sealed the faithful hydrometer will be put out to pasture.

As already noted, at rest the batteries are in parallel so testing while they are connected is pointless, the meter simply 'sees' one big battery, so the numbers coming back will be wrong.

The time the test is carried out is also important, switching off the engine and then checking the battery/batteries will show a voltage that is incorrect, unless the batteries have been standing for around 12 hours, and that is 12 hours with the batteries disconnected from the vehicle systems and in the case of the 80, from each other.

One way to shed this 'surface charge' is to switch on the headlights for about 15 minutes, engine obviously off. Then switch off the lights and now check the voltage, again on the 80 disconnecting the batteries from each other, you would be looking for around 12.6 -12.8 volts as they recover from the load or drain. This where meter accuracy is important, 12.6 - 12.8 volts may indicate a healthy battery but, 11.6 (note just one volt) would indicate a weak battery.

Looking at the OP's original numbers it would indicate a voltage regulator issue which, will not only allow the alternator to over charge the batteries and damage them, it would also allow the batteries to discharge through the alternator.

There is a voltage sense wire but, if this is disconnected it show a continuous high voltage with the engine running and unusually, on an 80 the red low charge dash indicator will also light up if there is an overcharging scenario.

Have someone who knows about 80 electrics check your system, driving into Halfrauds and say "please check my batteries" will almost certainly have someone come out with meter and test them one at a time but, NOT disconnect them, the results already explained above.

IME Varta are one of the best batteries on the market, they will stand some abuse, so they should be OK if the overcharge has not been over too long a period.

I guess readers eyes have glazed over now, so will leave the OP to come back with some more information.

Regards

Dave

 

[GuyB]

Thanks for all the input folks, yesterday was a long day waiting for a proper electrician.

No sign of the 20v charge... it was a cheap meter and maybe had a momentary freak-out. His conclusion was that one or more of the batteries is weak, but for the reasons Dave mentions above, he didn't make an 'absolute' assessment.

The charge from the alternator is 15v, and while I'm ordering a spare alternator as a precaution, I'm settling on the theory that I knackered one or both batteries through lack of use and a stereo that would intermittently drain them.

I took them out last night (off to the battery shop today) so I'll have him test them having had their 12 hr rest and see if I can get some kind of warranty claim. Otherwise, it's 300 quid - but at least I'm headed to Africa with some semblance of peace of mind.

I'll run all the suggested checks again once installed.

Thanks again, all - this forum is an absolute lifeline!

 

[StarCruiser]

For Varta batteries now owned by and identical to Bosch batteries.

Sounds like you're covering all bases. Surprised you didn't get a difinitive answer as 15v is far too high and could indicate the volt sense wire being disconnected. Try wiggling the plug on the back of the alternator while testing voltage across the battery terminals. This can be done quickly and easily with everything connected.

Do yourself a favour before you go, for sanity sake throw away the cheap meter and get a good one.

 

[moggy1968]

OK, I'm worried. 3 days until I set off on a 12,000k road trip to the Gambia and now this...

I had a problem with batteries dying if I stood the car for more than a few days, but put it down to old, cheap and mismatched batteries.

Replaced with new, decent ones (Varta) last year and in the short term, all was well. Then the problem started again. I only have a crude tester - which I used to isolate the source of the draw, and the dome light/stereo circuit seemed to be the culprit, so I pulled the fuse and fully charged both batteries.

2 weeks standing, and again, it won't start. Charged the batteries, and it still just that Uzi-like clicking... but no turnover. Starts on the button when I jump start from my Touareg.

So I've checked the batteries with a voltmeter, engine off, and they're both showing 15v. With the engine running each battery reads 20v. That seems like a lot of power from the alternator...

It was with my local mechanics for a while and I suspect they may have tried to jump it on the wrong side, and bridged the batteries and various other tricks to try and get it started. Have they cooked something?

Done that trip twice, 2004 and 2006, epic. Second time took the road alongside the railway toward chinguetti and then cut down diagonally to the barrage crossing. Do let us know how you get on. Be interested to know as the political situation has changed significantly in the intervening time. I have a voltage drain on my 60 so have fitted an isolator which as well as being an extra level of security prevents the batteries from discharging if it's parked up.

 

[GuyB]

Well, today was altogether a happier one!

Returned to the battery store that sold me the Vartas and they tested them (I had removed them 12h prior so they were properly rested) and sure enough, the starter/RH battery was shot. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the receipt or register, so no warranty... so without the benefit of time to try and repair it with a decent charger as per StarCruiser's suggestion, I set about negotiating.

I'm glad I did - I don't know if batteries are just more expensive here, but for a new pair plus a top of the line hybrid leisure/starter battery, I was staring down the barrel of €650! I told them about the Budapest - Bamako trip (leaving for Budapest tomorrow) and next thing I knew I was walking out with the lot (and a handful of 'Batteribolaget' decals, for 100 quid... back for a photo shoot tomorrow

Everything now working as it should... re-wiring the stereo to the deep cycle leisure battery until I get to replacing it, and kill-switches all-round!

 

[GuyB]

And yes - decent meter definitely on the list

 

[Ben Stratford]

Grest news Guy. Hope the trip is uneventful on the battery front but memorable otherwise for all the right reasons.
Have a safe journey and keep us updated

 

[Ian Chuter]

Good news Guy
And hopefully a little trip report?

 

[StarCruiser]

Well, today was altogether a happier one!

Returned to the battery store that sold me the Vartas and they tested them (I had removed them 12h prior so they were properly rested) and sure enough, the starter/RH battery was shot. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the receipt or register, so no warranty... so without the benefit of time to try and repair it with a decent charger as per StarCruiser's suggestion, I set about negotiating.

I'm glad I did - I don't know if batteries are just more expensive here, but for a new pair plus a top of the line hybrid leisure/starter battery, I was staring down the barrel of €650! I told them about the Budapest - Bamako trip (leaving for Budapest tomorrow) and next thing I knew I was walking out with the lot (and a handful of 'Batteribolaget' decals, for 100 quid... back for a photo shoot tomorrow

Everything now working as it should... re-wiring the stereo to the deep cycle leisure battery until I get to replacing it, and kill-switches all-round!

Now that's what I call a result. And something for us all to remember 'Everything's Negotiable'.

I wish there was a triple like button but you'll have to settle for this.

Well done to the battery store for some great customer service.