Figuring Pay Load

[CJBNomad8654]

Hi, I am trying to figure out my payload. I have a 1997 Land Cruiser 1HD-FT. The COC from Toyota says 2460 kg mass in working order. It then says 3060 kg permissible laden mass. When you look at distribution of max mass though (1500 kg/1950 kg max mass per axle [F/R]) and add those together you get 3450 kg. I subtracted the mass in working order from the max I got from adding the front and rear together and got 990 kg. First I guess I need to know if I am even going about this the right way, then I need to know how getting new (and slightly larger) wheels, and new coils and shocks effects this.

I am trying to figure this out for my overland trip across Africa. I don't want to overload the truck. Thanks for any assistance.

 

[Shayne]

It's all just numbers to make it easier for them to fill in government forms , if 2460kg is curb weight then they figure 3060kg is someone sat in every seat . It means nothing or it would be illegal to pull a trailer whenever anyone is in the truck !?!

 

[CJBNomad8654]

I figured. So, that said, is there a way to make sure I don't overload or is it the old eyeball technique?

Rack, RTT, and tools (shovel/hi-lift) up top, 160l auxiliary tank and bash plates underneath, possibly a 50l water tank inside, along with African Outback short drawers, ARB compressor, 70l ARB fridge, single optima battery (yellow top), cage, food/drinks, two packs, ARB front and rear bumpers with jerry-can holder and spare carrier, tire fill kit (ARB), valve core remover (ARB), tire patch kit, ARB recovery kit plussed up with 2x shackles and 2 x snatch blocks, Sand Trax, dual batt control and monitor, Warn Winch (9500lbs) 300W inverter, dishes, small stove, and a partridge in a pear tree.

 

[Shayne]

I'd leave the partrigde it'll shit all over the place but you can choose upgraded suspension if your planning on carrying all that . It may be worth your while loading the truck up with everything then driving it to a scrap merchants , quarry or sometimes a tip . Many have vehicle scales so you can weigh your truck . That way your sure to get the best suspension for your needs . No point in overdoing it and ending up with a boneshaker ride if you don't need to .

 

[Shayne]

PS wheels and shocks etc are unsprung weight so shouldn't come into it . I post this in the hope someone with far more experience than me will expand upon it . Bigger and heaver wheels and tyres just alter the way engine power is delivered . First gear on my 90 was pointless before i fitted steel wheels and much bigger rubber , but now it takes a little more grunt to get it moving from a standstill and i do use first ..... well sometimes .

 

[CJBNomad8654]

Cool man. Thanks, and great tip on the scale. I have decided to leave the partridge. I was told they don't shit, but I guess that was a lie.

 

[Paddler Ed]

The COC from Toyota says 2460 kg mass in working order.

That's what it weighs with a driver (about 70kg) and a tank of fuel IIRC

It then says 3060 kg permissible laden mass.

That's the most the vehicle can weigh, whilst not having more than:

When you look at distribution of max mass though (1500 kg/1950 kg max mass per axle [F/R]

I subtracted the mass in working order from the max I got from adding the front and rear together and got 990 kg. First I guess I need to know if I am even going about this the right way, then I need to know how getting new (and slightly larger) wheels, and new coils and shocks effects this.

That's nearly right; the payload by my maths is 600kg; MPLM - MIWO = Payload.

Basically the information regarding the axle loads is to ensure that farmer giles doesn't put 600kg in the boot and overload the back axle; the weight needs to be distributed such that there is not more than 1500kg on the front, nor 1950 on the back, whilst not exceeding 3060kg in total. Just had a look on Redbook.com.au and they quote a payload for 1997 HDJ80 of 730kg, but that is with a lower MWO and MPLM (Kerb Weight and GVW on their site)

It's all just numbers to make it easier for them to fill in government forms , if 2460kg is curb weight then they figure 3060kg is someone sat in every seat . It means nothing or it would be illegal to pull a trailer whenever anyone is in the truck !?!

The higher number is the maximum that the vehicle can weigh. That's what it has been approved to carry. For towing the weight that VOSA or equivalent are interested in is the Gross Train Weight now, or Gross Combination Mass.

I figured. So, that said, is there a way to make sure I don't overload or is it the old eyeball technique?

Rack, RTT, and tools (shovel/hi-lift) up top, 160l auxiliary tank and bash plates underneath, possibly a 50l water tank inside, along with African Outback short drawers, ARB compressor, 70l ARB fridge, single optima battery (yellow top), cage, food/drinks, two packs, ARB front and rear bumpers with jerry-can holder and spare carrier, tire fill kit (ARB), valve core remover (ARB), tire patch kit, ARB recovery kit plussed up with 2x shackles and 2 x snatch blocks, Sand Trax, dual batt control and monitor, Warn Winch (9500lbs) 300W inverter, dishes, small stove, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Known weights:
160l of fuel = circa 160kg
50l of water = about 55kg (including container at 5kg)

Total for liquid alone = 205kg

The bits that I can see on there that are going to add weight are:
ARB Bars
Fridge
Winch
Roof Top Tent
Roof Rack
Draw System
Spare wheels and tyres (possibly look at taking an inner tube instead of one tyre?)

Check what the roof limit is; I'd be surprised if it's over 150kg (but that may be with 3 or 4 cross bars, which are also included in the weight!)

We've been known to weigh everything with a spring balance or the bathroom scales when we've been loading a vehicle to make sure we don't over load it, particularly a full length roof rack on a 17 seat Transit minibus.

PS wheels and shocks etc are unsprung weight so shouldn't come into it . I post this in the hope someone with far more experience than me will expand upon it . Bigger and heaver wheels and tyres just alter the way engine power is delivered . First gear on my 90 was pointless before i fitted steel wheels and much bigger rubber , but now it takes a little more grunt to get it moving from a standstill and i do use first ..... well sometimes .

Wheels and suspension components will affect the amount the vehicle weighs on the weighbridge/scales; Unsprung weight is to do with handling rather than the vehicle weight.

Upgraded suspension (unless you get the vehicle re-plated) will not allow you to carry more than the MPLM; it will allow you to carry upto the MPLM more comfortably, but not more legally.

Hope that helps everyone, I'm sure someone else will have some more to add.

 

[Shayne]

I'm sure Paddler Ed is absolutely correct with all that , it would have taken me a month to work all that out !

What i would do is load the truck , get it weighed then phone Milner's or whoever and say my truck weighs 3 tonne or whatever what springs and shocks do i need . But don't go on any rides that say no children over 2 tonne .

Its illegal to pour a beer before its paid for but i've never met anyone who cared .

 

[IRLGW]

I think there is an official looking sticker on my glove box that says something like.....'As the gross weight of this vehicle exceeds 3500kg'.....wait for it....'then a tachograph must be used when towing a trailer' must photograph it next time I'm in the truck. It looks toyota issue, but then may not be...

 

[Shayne]

Haha cool you can set up camp on the truckstops when doing a long distance motorway run , I'd love to see the coppers face when you just pointed at the sticker with a smug grin on your face it would confuse the hell out of him but i bet you wouldn't be laughin long !

 

[Chris Green90]

I think there is an official looking sticker on my glove box that says something like.....'As the gross weight of this vehicle exceeds 3500kg'.....wait for it....'then a tachograph must be used when towing a trailer' must photograph it next time I'm in the truck. It looks toyota issue, but then may not be...

I have seen the same sticker in mine I think, or it was in my old Shogun, or maybe the surf or perhaps all three. I will have a look next time I am in the truck

 

[CJBNomad8654]

Paddler Ed -

Man, I feel like I should pay you for that answer. If I am hearing you right, if there were no laws on weight then the uprated coils and shocks are capable of carrying more weight, but due to law it does not allow you to exceed the weight unless you get a new registration for the vehicle and officially change its MPLM. That said, is there any issue with the attachment points and their strength when it comes to adding weight to the vehicle, etc? I have read often (mostly about LC coming rusted from the UK) about the frame attachment points where the shocks attach breaking off and having to be re-welded en-route. I guess that's mainly due to corrosion, but I wonder if the frame isn't also engineered to handle a certain amount of weight even if you strengthen the rest of the gear. I also didn't consider the roof bearing weight limits. I bet you're right in it being around 150kg. The rack I have was sent free by a new company. The guys mounting it (have mounted many hundreds of racks from different manufacturers) said the rack is "very heavy". Hmmmmm.....

Shayne -

Thanks for the shock/coil advice, but I just forgot to list them. I have the Koni Heavy Track Raids and a question: I can't remember which coils I got. I know they are 70mm TJM XGS, but I can't remember and the guy who installed them (different guy from the ones installing the roof rack) can't remember what he ordered and installed and evidently has no records (or poor records). I wrote TJM but haven't heard anything back. Does anyone know a way I can look at them or measure their thickness to determine if they are HD or XHD?

 

[CJBNomad8654]

I knew manufacturers low balled their numbers to provide a margin of safety and to keep from getting sued, but if this is correct than Toyota really low-balled it on the 80-Series. Evidently the gutter mounts are pretty sturdy and so are 80-Series. This is a photo of an 80 in Bolivia carrying a 1000l water tank on its rack. It has been carrying water o this hotel for a number of years. The pipe coming out the side was to empty the tank. That's what, 1000kg? If that was really full of water, then that is impressive.

 

[Paddler Ed]

Paddler Ed -

Man, I feel like I should pay you for that answer. If I am hearing you right, if there were no laws on weight then the uprated coils and shocks are capable of carrying more weight, but due to law it does not allow you to exceed the weight unless you get a new registration for the vehicle and officially change its MPLM. That said, is there any issue with the attachment points and their strength when it comes to adding weight to the vehicle, etc? I have read often (mostly about LC coming rusted from the UK) about the frame attachment points where the shocks attach breaking off and having to be re-welded en-route. I guess that's mainly due to corrosion, but I wonder if the frame isn't also engineered to handle a certain amount of weight even if you strengthen the rest of the gear. I also didn't consider the roof bearing weight limits. I bet you're right in it being around 150kg. The rack I have was sent free by a new company. The guys mounting it (have mounted many hundreds of racks from different manufacturers) said the rack is "very heavy". Hmmmmm.....

No problems with that Chris; my background is being in charge of Outdoor Education and Outdoor Activities for a local council, so I had to be pretty hot on vehicles and their weights... 2003-ish Transit 17 seater with 2 staff + 14 kids doing their Duke of Edinburgh's Award exped in it? That'll be overloaded almost certainly; they used to have a maximum of 3500kg and an unloaded weight of 2640kg, and by the time you put 14 x 55kg kids (770kg) + 14 x 15kg (210kg) rucksacks in you're over loaded by 120kg and that's before you've added 2 members of staff (another 160kg say) and their kit (another 30kg), and the roof rack for it all to go on (which was only 100kg anyway...). In my last role our vehicles were stored at the Council's Transport Depot, so I knew the head of Transport quite well... I used to cop an earful about once a quarter about him seeing one of our buses being used by someone who was overloading it; not only was the driver going to get a fine, but he would as well. Also grown up in a caravanning family, so am used to the talk about weight of stuff, and the weight limits.

I think you're on the right lines with the idea that if there were no laws regarding the maximum weight then the uprated suspension components may be enough (I've heard the American's refer to some of the uprated springs as Over Load springs!) On the matter of the strength of the suspension components I'm not sure; I'll leave that to someone else with more knowledge! There will be a point of no return with the chassis and axles in terms of overload; I've known it happen with a 20 ton dump truck where the weight has been loaded badly (but probably still within it's MPLM) and snap the chassis behind the cab when it folded in half; the bigger problem isn't a static load - ie when you've loaded it up, but dynamic load - hit a speed bump/hump backed bridge too hard and fast and the suspension unloads and then reload quickly on the compression cycle, bottoming out, and excessively loading the chassis and suspension mounts.

With regards to the Tacho's that's probably on there because if it's a commercial vehicle and is being used to tow materials for which payment is going to be received then there must, by law, be a tacho fitted IIRC, if it's carrying tools to allow you to carry out your job then a tacho may not be needed. (I've managed to do that just about by memory, that's scary!) Here's a link to the VOSA PDF that makes it as clear as mud, but here's a more useful flow chart from the NTTA and a good bit from Fleet News

Hope that helps everyone! I may not be able to add much to the forum in mechanical knowledge, but I'm hoping that bits like this make up for it!

 

[Shayne]

I'm struggling to think of a reason why any of this matters for a trip in Africa . Unless like Paddler Ed your running a public service and liable to huge lawsuits if something goes wrong ?

A completely standard landcruiser would likely get you and all your gear from one end of Africa to the other without any problem at all .

 

[Paddler Ed]

I'm struggling to think of a reason why any of this matters for a trip in Africa . Unless like Paddler Ed your running a public service and liable to huge lawsuits if something goes wrong ?

A completely standard landcruiser would likely get you and all your gear from one end of Africa to the other without any problem at all .

Sorry Shayne, I seem to have derailed the thread...

My thoughts were due to his location being in Germany; how is he going to get the vehicle (legally) to Africa without putting it on a truck/trailer/train if he's loading it up in Germany?

The Tacho stuff was because a couple of people popped up with comments on the stickers in the car...

There's also the matter that if an insurer can find a way out of paying for something then they'll try their damned hardest to do so!

Ed

 

[Shayne]

I thought of the shipping side of it but the original question doesn't even hint at that side of things , just curious is all . You might be interested to know earlier landrovers were not allowed to travel over 60mph (i think it was) because they were classed as commercial vehicles when sold .

 

[Paddler Ed]

I thought of the shipping side of it but the original question doesn't even hint at that side of things , just curious is all . You might be interested to know earlier landrovers were not allowed to travel over 60mph (i think it was) because they were classed as commercial vehicles when sold .

Which is still true for the Pick ups, vans and double cabs when on a dual carriageway... and they're limited to 50mph on single carriageway road as they are commercial vehicles...

There's all sorts of peculiarities when you start looking at how vehicles are sold over the years, and what dodges companies come up with (in Australia the height of the vehicle (as well as if it's 4x4/AWD or not) decides if it's an 4x4 or not, and if it's not it gets taxed higher, so some of the cross over cars were made higher in their second incarnation)



Now we've really gone and done it! That's it well and truly de-railed... sorry Chris!

 

[CJBNomad8654]

All is good, friends. I often forget about the part of he trip where I still have to drive across Europe. It's hard enough reading up on the varying laws throughout the different countries, now I have to add a bunch of weight to the vehicle, changing its manufactured design. I'll just drive slow and safe until I get to he Wild West. All great information, though guys. Thanks.