More Green Lanes?

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Guest

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There was an article in the paper over the weekend saying that the
government has set aside ?20 million to classify all footpaths, bridle
ways and byways that might have been in use over the last 500 years but
are no longer classified.
In other words, if there was a cart track crossing some land that was
last used over 2-300 hundred years ago and there is a record of it,
then it will be reclassified for use by ramblers and 4x4s for the
future.
Not only will they be classifying these tracks, but they will also be
sending teams to open them up.
They are starting in Wiltshire and another county (can't remember)
initially with a view to covering the whole country by 2026.
Whilst this is good news for ramblers and 4x4 drivers (particularly
since they are being considered as a beneficiary of the project), this
is going to piss a lot of people off.
For example there used to be a track joining our farm to the
neighbouring farm and then on down their drive to a local road that was
in place when they were both owned by the same estate. The postman
used to use it during the 60s, but since the two farms are no longer
affiliated the track was plough up, yet since there are records of it
it looks like we will have to open it up again.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

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Julian,
There has been a project going on for some time to establish the
classification of RUPS using documentary evidence of use. All County
Councils were to have fished classifying by the year 2000. There has been
many legal disputes concerning the legality of which ever classification had
been chosen, some reaching the High Court. It matters not one jot what the
warring sides want but is based on the complex British legal system and
documentary evidence. Some Council like Wiltshire has a positive approach
to such matters while others have not and pushed classifications through
disregarding documentary evidence. Some official 4x4 representative bodies
misunderstood the due legal process and encouraged drivers to document
recent travel on disputed RUPS but were in fact in some cases merely giving
the authorities the names and addresses of those illegally using some of
them. Basically if documentary evidence could be upheld for use before 1933
the RUPS can be legally classified as a BOAT Byway Open for All Traffic
including carriages which motor vehicles legally are. It may be that many
of these RUPS are of a lesser legal status such as Bridle Way or Foot Path.
My wife was once a representative on a county council rights of way comity
and in fact represented Lara many years ago on the Top Gear Program.
Anthony Graham
1994 HDJ80 1HD - T
West Wales
UK
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 04 January 2005 15:29
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] More Green Lanes?
There was an article in the paper over the weekend saying that the
government has set aside =A320 million to classify all footpaths, bridle ways and byways that might have been in use over the last 500 years but
are no longer classified.
In other words, if there was a cart track crossing some land that was
last used over 2-300 hundred years ago and there is a record of it,
then it will be reclassified for use by ramblers and 4x4s for the
future.
Not only will they be classifying these tracks, but they will also be
sending teams to open them up.
They are starting in Wiltshire and another county (can't remember)
initially with a view to covering the whole country by 2026.
Whilst this is good news for ramblers and 4x4 drivers (particularly
since they are being considered as a beneficiary of the project), this
is going to piss a lot of people off.
For example there used to be a track joining our farm to the
neighbouring farm and then on down their drive to a local road that was
in place when they were both owned by the same estate. The postman
used to use it during the 60s, but since the two farms are no longer
affiliated the track was plough up, yet since there are records of it
it looks like we will have to open it up again.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Do you have anymore details?
If this is true it's the best news I've heard on this. However I seem to
recall this process has been supposed to be going on for over 30 years
with 2 sets of grants to councils. With the exception of a few
enlightened ones they either haven't done it or are slowly letting them
revert to lower rights on the basis that the Ramblers are more powerful
and it removes their duty to maintain it for pedestrian access - because
4x4's tear up the wet areas and the Ramblers demand it fixed. God forbid
they get muddy in the countryside or use the millions of footpaths!
Wiltshire have closed the Ridgeway over winter on the basis that it's a
National Trail, whose charter states it must be passable to pedestrian
and equestrian all year. This seems to warrant the entire Wilts section
closed and all adjoining byways. Seems "National Trail" designation
despite having no legal basis overides it's legal designation of byway.
I suspect none of the vehicular groups can afford a Barrister to
challenge. Oxford have closed most of it despite the fact that only a
couple of short 100m sections could be argued as a pain when not in a
motor vehicle and even then I've been through on my mountain bike.
Oxford said it was to protect repairs made previously!!! Well what sort
of repairs to a byway can't support motor vehicles? Pointless ones?
On your farm it might be a nuisance if you have to open it up but I
doubt anyone will want to use it if it's a dead end at your gate. I
would think all you have to do is mark the path so people don't have an
excuse to wander all over your crops. I guess you lose a bit of ground
but then you gained a bit for a while. Not sure of disadvantages or
advantages of having a ROW on your land but if you knew about it when
you bought the farm ............... Also if it's a byway in theory it's
maintainable by the council so surely you don't need to do much? I'd be
interested in hearing how it works from the landowners perspective though.
Ian.
Julian Voelcker wrote:
--
Free classifieds for anything 2 wheeled:
http://www.fud.f2s.com/classifieds/classifieds.php
Layman's ROW guide: http://www.rightsofway.net
 
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Julian
Concerning the track way adjoining the two farms, is there at the present
any public right of way at the present? If not then whether a post man used
it or not is of little consequence as he is in employment and carrying out
his duties. It may be that it is on the list of streets or that there is
legal documentary evidence of use of carriages other than those owned by the
respective farms or others for that sole purpose. It may be argued that it
is was for only private permitted use only
Anthony Graham
1994 HDJ 1HD - T
West Wales
UK
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Ian Packer
Sent: 04 January 2005 15:59
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] More Green Lanes?
Do you have anymore details?
If this is true it's the best news I've heard on this. However I seem to recall this process has been supposed to be going on for over 30 years
with 2 sets of grants to councils. With the exception of a few
enlightened ones they either haven't done it or are slowly letting them
revert to lower rights on the basis that the Ramblers are more powerful
and it removes their duty to maintain it for pedestrian access - because 4x4's tear up the wet areas and the Ramblers demand it fixed. God forbid they get muddy in the countryside or use the millions of footpaths!
Wiltshire have closed the Ridgeway over winter on the basis that it's a
National Trail, whose charter states it must be passable to pedestrian
and equestrian all year. This seems to warrant the entire Wilts section
closed and all adjoining byways. Seems "National Trail" designation
despite having no legal basis overides it's legal designation of byway.
I suspect none of the vehicular groups can afford a Barrister to
challenge. Oxford have closed most of it despite the fact that only a
couple of short 100m sections could be argued as a pain when not in a
motor vehicle and even then I've been through on my mountain bike.
Oxford said it was to protect repairs made previously!!! Well what sort
of repairs to a byway can't support motor vehicles? Pointless ones?
On your farm it might be a nuisance if you have to open it up but I
doubt anyone will want to use it if it's a dead end at your gate. I
would think all you have to do is mark the path so people don't have an
excuse to wander all over your crops. I guess you lose a bit of ground
but then you gained a bit for a while. Not sure of disadvantages or
advantages of having a ROW on your land but if you knew about it when
you bought the farm ............... Also if it's a byway in theory it's
maintainable by the council so surely you don't need to do much? I'd be
interested in hearing how it works from the landowners perspective though.
Ian.
Julian Voelcker wrote:
bridle
but
was
--
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Layman's ROW guide: http://www.rightsofway.net
 
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Guest
That's the Discovering Lost Ways project isn't it?
A postal van using a track does not necessarily make it a public right
of way - that usage may have only been permissive, not prescriptive, in
which case it was never a public right of way. I don't think 1960's
usage is sufficient either.
If it only runs from a public highway past another farm and then to your
farm it's unlikely to suddenly be declared public. Usually it requires
significant historical evidence of public vehicular use to support such
a claim.
Got grid refs for it? I'll look it up on some old maps for you if you
want.
Best regards,
Jon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]]
On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 04 January 2005 15:29
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] More Green Lanes?
There was an article in the paper over the weekend saying that the
government has set aside =A320 million to classify all footpaths, bridle ways and byways that might have been in use over the last 500 years but
are no longer classified.
In other words, if there was a cart track crossing some land that was
last used over 2-300 hundred years ago and there is a record of it,
then it will be reclassified for use by ramblers and 4x4s for the
future.
Not only will they be classifying these tracks, but they will also be
sending teams to open them up.
They are starting in Wiltshire and another county (can't remember)
initially with a view to covering the whole country by 2026.
Whilst this is good news for ramblers and 4x4 drivers (particularly
since they are being considered as a beneficiary of the project), this
is going to piss a lot of people off.
For example there used to be a track joining our farm to the
neighbouring farm and then on down their drive to a local road that was
in place when they were both owned by the same estate. The postman
used to use it during the 60s, but since the two farms are no longer
affiliated the track was plough up, yet since there are records of it
it looks like we will have to open it up again.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
OK, you should be able to read the full story at:
http://tinyurl.com/6vomu
Yes it is a pain because it has to passable all year round so you in
theory you can't plough it so you have to plough around it which splits
a field in two and increases the effort involved in ploughing and
drilling by about 20% and then we would have to keep it sprayed to keep
the large weeds down. If we don't do it we will end up being fined.
All that effort for a track that as you say will probably not be used.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Anthony,
No.
That is a hope, but unlikely. It will be interesting to see what
happens.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Jon,
To be honest I was mainly giving it as a rough (not so accurate)
example of the sort of things that could happen, but it would be
interesting to see if it appears on any of your maps.
The track used to run between SU 93360 81065 and 93430 80325.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian Voelcker wrote:
Julian,
Surely they can't just make any road public without very good reason. If
it's never been a byway you must be able to do whatever you want. As it
goes nowhere there is no justification for making it public and if they
did surely they would need compulsory purchase?
Whilst I'd like lots more byways I find any suggestion that the
government can snatch someone's property without overwhelming and clear
public need quite abhorrent.
Ian.
--
Free classifieds for anything 2 wheeled:
http://www.fud.f2s.com/classifieds/classifieds.php
Layman's ROW guide: http://www.rightsofway.net
 
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Guest

Guest
Julian,
If no public right of way exists for this track way, and you can check that
out for you self at the County Council Rights of way Office, ask to see the
definitive map for your area, on it will be clearly marked all public rights
of way, what ever there classification together with legal statements
concerning the use or any amendments to that use and gives a written
statement. Some authorities have a second map which covers county roads
"white roads". You may need to check out the "list of streets". The Law
states "once a Highway always a Highway" so if it was a highway before and
this can be proven legally then that is it, like it or not. Classifications
and statements are enshrined in Law and can only be challenged legally and
that goes for and against, it is irrelevant what an individual thinks. The
party proposing the right of way has to prove that it was a right of way in
a legally acceptable way and this is not always easy, they have to show a
weight of unchallengeable evidence that a high way existed and for what
purpose, to prove a BOAT colloquially known as a "green lane" then only
evidence of such use will have to be based on usage before 1933 I think the
date is correct. This is because of a test case concerning a RUPP Road Used
as a Public Path and there usage was brought up at that time and as most of
our common laws are based on president then the ruling was enshrined in law
from then on. Any point that is brought up as evidence will have to undergo
scrutiny and may be challenged. If there is any controversy concerning a
right of way then a public hearing might be set up to allow various factions
to give evidence, a word of warning here, only legal and proper objections
may be brought and if it be deemed that improper objections caused a waste
of time then costs may be brought against those people. After this and no
way forward and a ruling be sort then it may go to the High Court in any
case objections can be made.
Have public notices been posted at this stage?
I presume that you may be a member of the Farmers Union; or the County
Owners they often take these maters up on the behalf of land owners. There
are specialist solicitors who cover this aspect of the law.
I am very lucky with my farm or small holding in that I have no public
rights of way at all leading through it and I always challenge any person I
see crossing it as if you do not they may assume legally a right of way
exists.
Anthony Graham
1994 HDJ 1HD - T
West Wales
UK
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 04 January 2005 16:49
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] More Green Lanes?
Hi Anthony,
No.
That is a hope, but unlikely. It will be interesting to see what
happens.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Antony,
My take on the article is that they will be looking up old rights of way/highways that may no longer be classified because they haven't been in use for a couple of hundred years and then looking into getting them classified.
The track on our farm was only a rough example and I doubt will fit into the scheme of things.
Cheers,
Julian
Home: 01285 821 712
Office: 01285 821 910
Mobile: 07971 540 362
 
G

Guest

Guest
Julian
This green-laning status, is it anything to do with the hunting ban?
just curious
Renate
>>> [Email address removed] 01/04/05 06:16pm >>>
Antony,
My take on the article is that they will be looking up old rights of
way/highways that may no longer be classified because they haven't been
in use for a couple of hundred years and then looking into getting them
classified.
The track on our farm was only a rough example and I doubt will fit
into the scheme of things.
Cheers,
Julian
Home: 01285 821 712
Office: 01285 821 910
Mobile: 07971 540 362
 
G

Guest

Guest
Renate Haupt wrote:
Only in attitude and mind set.
Green laning is not "PC" and a minority pastime therefore should be
banned, so many think and the government see votes in it. Trouble is we
all have some minority interest but the dumb public don't seem to
understand that a little tolerance of others allows us all our own
little area of individualism ultimately as if you can't tolerate others
hobbies why should they tolerate yours.
I don't think they will give much to vehicle users until there's a
threat of serious loss of votes.
Ian.
--
Free classifieds for anything 2 wheeled:
http://www.fud.f2s.com/classifieds/classifieds.php
Layman's ROW guide: http://www.rightsofway.net
 
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Guest

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Ian
Hm! so no change there then...
Renate
>>> [Email address removed] 01/04/05 06:27pm >>>
Renate Haupt wrote:
> Julian
> This green-laning status, is it anything to do with the hunting ban?
> just curious
> Renate
>
Only in attitude and mind set.
Green laning is not "PC" and a minority pastime therefore should be
banned, so many think and the government see votes in it. Trouble is we
all have some minority interest but the dumb public don't seem to
understand that a little tolerance of others allows us all our own
little area of individualism ultimately as if you can't tolerate others
hobbies why should they tolerate yours.
I don't think they will give much to vehicle users until there's a
threat of serious loss of votes.
Ian.
--
Free classifieds for anything 2 wheeled:
http://www.fud.f2s.com/classifieds/classifieds.php
Layman's ROW guide: http://www.rightsofway.net
 
G

Guest

Guest
That's ST really based on where your farm is :)
According to 1888 maps there's no highway of any description connecting
those two farms.
It seems very unlikely that between 1888 & 1933 sufficient public rights
would have been prescribed for it to be determined as a full public
highway. It doesn't provide a useful shortcut to anyone other than the
landowners, and normally public highways went to and from something
useful to the public!
For other cases, if a lost highway is discovered and it has been out of
use for a long time there is always the possibility that it will be
closed on grounds of no longer being required (this does happen). That
would prevent the public from exercising their rights.
Best regards,
Jon.
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]]
On Behalf Of Julian Voelcker
Sent: 04 January 2005 16:59
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] More Green Lanes?
Hi Jon,
To be honest I was mainly giving it as a rough (not so accurate)
example of the sort of things that could happen, but it would be
interesting to see if it appears on any of your maps.
The track used to run between SU 93360 81065 and 93430 80325.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Jon,
We are the Avils Farm end. To be honest it would be a useful back way
out for us to our other farm if opened - the neighbour at Nables farm
is a bit of a pain so we would be unlikely to be able to get him to co
-operate with re-opening it.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift, ARB
 
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