RE Battery charger/alternator facts

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JB, sorry to hear you are having trouble again. I did not see the
start of your thread as I have not had digests for quite a few days
(don't worry, Julian has been helping behind the scenes). But can I
make some observations?
A 12 volt system will start the 4.2 IDI quite adequately in freezing
conditions. Living halfway up a mountain in the Balkans my single
75ah battery always fired the old girl up. 2 years ago I had to park
overnight at a hotel (up an even higher mountain) in January when we
had over 2ft of snow in the night. I knew starting would be touch and
go in the morning, but three doses of the heater plugs were enough to
make it fire first time (there is no ambient temperature override on
my basic HZ glow system). It may be the 'tropical' spec model but I
think it proves that if the systems are working and well maintained -
including the glow plugs - then it will take a good dose of cold
weather. But the last 2nd hand 80 I bought for the office, also with
an HZ engine, was supplied by TGS in European spec with 24v starting
but with the usual glow plugs. This truck was a worse starter than
mine for some reason. By the way, my 80 with snow chains fitted was
the only vehicle to get out of that valley that day !
When living in Russia I knew of several cars in my car park that had
a large 12 volt battery in the boot, they just appeared to charge
these batteries from the lighter socket. So there was always a jump
start available for the driver of that car. This of course, after one
had poured a kettle of boiling water over the alloy inlet manifold to
help vapourise the petrol on a Lada.
I have a mate with a second hand car business who relies on the
starter pack things, and as I recall they were the quality Draper
brand. I would guess that those supplied by the likes of Machine Mart
or Northern Tool Co. would also be of suitable quality.
For starting at home, next time you buy a battery charger why not get
one with a 'starting circuit'? They are available in 12 and 24 volt
versions. On my boat I have one that has a maximum charging output
of 25 amps, and for starting, 200 amps for about 30 seconds.
Thankfully I never have to use that function on mine, but have used
it on the large slow revving engines of neighbouring boats to good effect.
Nevertheless having the unique Toy 12/24 starting system makes it
very awkward to use these alternatives. Good maintenance and the
efficient functioning of the charging system are essential. It makes
me glad I have the simple military spec 12 volt HZ.
Cheers
Jon
Tring, Herts
'92 HZJ80 ex UN Bosnia surplus
PS. Reno, nice to see you around still, but you describe yourself as
a - E u r o r i c a i n -. So is that 'cain' as in recreational
sherbet, or 'cain' as in the stuff the dentist uses to keep you down
in his chair, or is it about an uncontrollable and damaging wind somewhere?
 
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Hey Jon
Thanks for the info and as usual very percise.Very pleased to see you are
still alive and kicking.
Could you tell me when I start looking for one of these chargers or power
packs, (just in case) what power do I need in it. I see you all talking
about Ah how much AH or Amps do I need to start the cruiser. I ask because
again when I look at all the items available they differ in AH or Amps and I
want to make sure I get one that has enough power to do the job I want it to
do.
Once I know what power or ah or amps I need I can then look with a bit more
confidence.
You talk about a spare battery which is a good idea and about the same size
as a charger but maybe a bit heavier not that that makes any differance.
Its just I dont want to buy an item only to find it will not be any good.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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On 12/3/06, John Byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Hello Jon,
That, unfortunately, is the end of your woes. Reserve power capacity
(Ah) of a battery tells you very little about its suitability to start
the engine. The parameter that you should be concerned with is CCA
(cold cranking amps). The more CCA the better. There are starter
batteries that come in a small package, like DMS batteries. They are
rated in excess
of 700 CCA, but have reserve capacity of only 25 Ah.
---
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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Ah Roman
You really are trying to confuse me. I have looked at loads of chargers and
powerpacks and they are either toooooo large to carry in the cruiser or dont
pack enough punch to start the cruiser.
They are all different prices and makes.
They talk about amps and ah now I have you talking about CCA. What is CCA
because I have not seen this mentioned anywhere on the products. If I know
the ampe of the charger can i find out the CCA of it.
Where do I find a CCA compatable charger/powerpack that I can carry in the
boot of the cruiser.
I know a charger with 900 boost amps will only start a 3 litre engine and
maybe 6 amp slow release is not as good as the 12 amp, but I still don't
know what I need.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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On 12/4/06, John Byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
ts.
Cold Cranking Amps is a rating used in the battery industry to define
a battery's ability to start an engine in cold temperatures. The
rating is the number of amps a new, fully charged battery can deliver
at 0=B0 Farenheit for 30 sec. while maintaining a voltage of at least
7.2V (for a 12V battery). The higher the CCA rating, the greater the
starting power of the battery.
Read more about batteries here: http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm
e
Here: http://www.dmstech.co.uk/commercialppp.htm
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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JB wrote...
Could you tell me when I start looking for one of these chargers or power
packs, (just in case) what power do I need in it. I see you all talking
about Ah how much AH or Amps do I need to start the cruiser. I ask because
again when I look at all the items available they differ in AH or Amps and I
want to make sure I get one that has enough power to do the job I want it to
do.
SNIP
JB, remember that others have already reminded you that you have to
boost each battery individually with the unique Toy 12/24 volt
starting system. As for the capacity of the booster pack, again,
remember that they are 12 volts each. The output quoted I think
generally refers to the same thing whether its 'amps' or 'amp
hours.' Bear in mind that each battery of your 80 is about 70 amps,
therefore when combined at starting they are pushing out 140 amps
when in good condition. Just to confuse you a tad more, its cold
cranking amps that are more important - the amount of juice available
for a short burst sufficient to throw the engine over for 4 or 5
revolutions to get it going. These power packs usually have 700 -
1000 cold cranking amps. They are quite good at it as that is their
main purpose. But your batteries combined push out about 2000 cold
cranking amps.
If you buy a booster pack from a good motor factor or trade outlet -
not a DIY motor store - they will cost you about 100 euros each. So
for two of them, the 200 euros spent will be better invested in
overhauling your 80's charging system. Its the equivalent cost of a
couple of batteries, but given that they are half OK then you can get
a new alternator for that sum. If I am happy just using a trickle
charger occasionally when living up a mountain and not having any
starting problems, then surely you would have no difficulty keeping
in top condition in lowland Ireland and not need to have a back-up in
the boot all the time? (But remember I did not see the start of your
thread so may have missed something for which I apologise).
Cheers
Jon
Tring, Herts
'92 HZJ 80 ex UN Bosnia surplus
 
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Jon,
Just a small point. When the batteries are connected for starting
the Amps are the same, in your example 70. It is the volts that
double.
Regards, Clive.
 
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Clive,
You are absolutely correct - Jon's statement needs to be amended.
On the other hand, because P = I x V, even with the current remaining
unchanged, the amount of power expended by two batteries will double.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 12/4/06, Clive Marks <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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what about a decent set of jump leads?? made out of 50mm cable??? that
does thesame job!
brian
John Byrne wrote:
 
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Hey Brian
Ah sure yea still need the donor vehicle to help with a set of jump leads. I
was looking towards the independant approach.
Not having to rely on the passing motorist in their new cars who dont really
want to help in case they get dirty or you mess up their car.
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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John
The best solution has to be to sort out your electrical system. The twin
battery setup on these beasts has a huge reserve of electrical power,
and effectively you are already carrying around a spare battery ... in
your engine compartment.
You must have one or more of:
- knackered battery.
- knackered alternator.
- severe current drain with engine off.
It really, truly, would pay you to go to just about anywhere (except
your normal Toyota mechanic, I think) to get these tested. Any garage
will have the equipment to do this, and in the UK most tyre and exhaust
places can do it too. Usually they charge nothing to test it since they
can make money selling you new batteries etc.
My guess would be a knackered cell in a battery, as this has happened to
me twice now, with current drain a close 2nd.
As for carrying around a booster pack: well, any 12 volt one will do.
So long as you leave it connected to a battery (doesn't matter which)
for 5 minutes it will probably transfer enough energy to start the
truck. It doesn't need to be a huge capacity booster pack - 35 Amp
hours would be plenty.
My fairly knackered 40Ah electric fence "leisure" battery started a dead
BMW the other day after only two minutes of being connected across the
Beemer's battery terminals.
And note that jump leads only need to be really heavy if you want to
start the engine immediately. Thinner ones will transfer enough power
if you leave them connected for a minute or two to recharge the dead
batteries for a bit - which is good practice anyway as it reduces the
shock load on the donor vehicle's electrical system when you try
cranking.
Christopher Bell
Devon, UK
1996 1HD-FT (with 2x new batteries fitted last September)
|
|Hey Brian
|Ah sure yea still need the donor vehicle to help with a set of
|jump leads. I
|was looking towards the independant approach.
|Not having to rely on the passing motorist in their new cars
|who dont really
|want to help in case they get dirty or you mess up their car.
|john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
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Hi Guys
Just a follow up on this subject.
I had a look in a few motor factors and all would love to sell me two lovely
new batteries and a lovely charger etc.
But when I ask about CCS they look blankly at me.
Geese its great to have a bit of knowledge.
But one thing one guy did say was that if I are getting a jump start from a
newer car I really should have a set of jump leads with a surge prventer on
them.
This is to protect the doner car and stop air bags from being deployed.
Also I was told to use tap water to fill the batteries by one guy and only
use distilled water in them by another guy.
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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John
Diagnose the problem first!!!
There's no point in buying two new batteries if your existing ones are
fine and your alternator is knackered, or some electronic gizmo you've
fitted is draining them.
And never use tap water in batteries, always distilled water (or
"de-ionised" water).
I've never heard of a surge preventer on jump leads (nor has Google),
but I suppose it's possible. Leaving the leads connected for a minute
or two before attempting to start the dead car will prevent excessive
surges, and if you are really worried turn off the engine & ignition on
the donor car. (If its alternator isn't running it won't produce surges,
and with the ignition off its electronics are isolated.)
CB
|Hi Guys
|Just a follow up on this subject.
|I had a look in a few motor factors and all would love to sell
|me two lovely
|new batteries and a lovely charger etc.
|But when I ask about CCS they look blankly at me.
|Geese its great to have a bit of knowledge.
|But one thing one guy did say was that if I are getting a jump
|start from a
|newer car I really should have a set of jump leads with a
|surge prventer on
|them.
|This is to protect the doner car and stop air bags from being deployed.
|Also I was told to use tap water to fill the batteries by one
|guy and only
|use distilled water in them by another guy.
|john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
____________________________________________________________
Electronic mail messages entering and leaving Arup business
systems are scanned for acceptability of content and viruses
 
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On 12/6/06, John Byrne <[Email address removed]> wrote:
John,
Forget water. - buy gel batteries.
And never buy anything from the plonker telling you to use tap water.
---
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
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Roman
Forget water. - buy gel batteries-what is this? something new?
cheers
Lubo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] RE Battery charger/alternator facts
 
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Lubo,
Not at all. It's been around for years, Check Optima or Odyssey AGM Batteries
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 12/6/06, Lubomir Kolev <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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Thanks Roman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] RE Battery charger/alternator facts
 
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Roman
which one of them do you use?
Lubo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman" <[Email address removed]>
To: <[Email address removed]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ELCO] RE Battery charger/alternator facts
 
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Try replacing your two batteries with Optima Red tops. Maintenance free and
filled with a gel that doesn't slosh about when you are going up and down dale
or dune or mountain or whatever.
Jeremy
Optima Yellow Tops are great for the third battery for all those creature
comforts...
Quoting Roman <[Email address removed]>:
 
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