Smoke

G

Guest

Guest
Hi guys
it is quite long that thing bothered me but it is not so easy to explain for me.now I'll give it a try:while ago I changed the turbo with 'Sport' one after I hade some leak from the IP,it was dismounted ,fixed and mounted again. since then I begun to discover more smoke than usual-been at Toyota and they confirm that it is 'normal' . now I went to a turbo technician who offered to adjust the IP and put some K&N filter and Westgate opener and what was discovered was that the turbo pressure is too high(he mount some instrument showing the bars): Now the car goes like hell(very well :)))))))) ) but the pressure is over 1.0 bars sometimes even goes to 1.3 and the guy means that it is wrong. After a while he discovered some shims put on the Westgate which by his meaning are the problem for the high pressure.The problem is that I(we) don't know who put those shims on the Westgate and why they are on the 1st place there ....I tried to contact AAI but no one there before Monday...Still the car smokes much(my opinion) the smoke is black but otherwise goes very well-has power and pulls away very fast,but have the bad feeling that it should not been that way...
Any opinion?
cheers
Lubo
'96 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Lubo,
With landrovers it is regular to turn the fuel pump up so that more power is
delivered. This gives very vey thick black smoke on acceleration as the fuel
pump overfuels. It doesn't damage the engine apart from the fact that you
are producing more power than it is designed for.
As long as the smoke is black then you don't have any damage- you need to
worry then it is white or blue.
The only concern is that engine life might be reduced, but I tend to think
that the huge straight six in the 80 can take a fair bit of extra power
through it without any trouble!
Cheers
Jim
_____
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Lubo
Sent: 06 November 2007 16:42
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: [ELCO] Smoke
Hi guys
it is quite long that thing bothered me but it is not so easy to explain for
me.now I'll give it a try:while ago I changed the turbo with 'Sport' one
after I hade some leak from the IP,it was dismounted ,fixed and mounted
again. since then I begun to discover more smoke than usual-been at Toyota
and they confirm that it is 'normal' . now I went to a turbo technician who
offered to adjust the IP and put some K&N filter and Westgate opener and
what was discovered was that the turbo pressure is too high(he mount some
instrument showing the bars): Now the car goes like hell(very well
:)))))))) ) but the pressure is over 1.0 bars sometimes even goes to 1.3
and the guy means that it is wrong. After a while he discovered some shims
put on the Westgate which by his meaning are the problem for the high
pressure.The problem is that I(we) don't know who put those shims on the
Westgate and why they are on the 1st place there ....I tried to contact AAI
but no one there before Monday...Still the car smokes much(my opinion) the
smoke is black but otherwise goes very well-has power and pulls away very
fast,but have the bad feeling that it should not been that way...
Any opinion?
cheers
Lubo
'96 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Lubo,
Your boost presure is way too high. 1.0 Bar is about 14.5 PSI and
you should be looking at about 11, drive very carefully or you will do
some damage.
Regards,
Clive Marks
Home: +44 1293 514600
Mobile: +44 7821 491897
Crawley, West Sussex, UK.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Lubo/Clive
If your IP is over fueled it will give noticeably much more power but it
will shorten the life of your engine.
I experienced this extra power and thought it was cool but the IP guys told
me no way I could keep the power and keep my engine.
Clive im sorry but I have a question or two if you dont mind.
Could you explain boost pressure and what it is needed for.
You say the pressure shopuld be 11, why should it be this and what are the
problems with it being higher or lower.
How do you test the boost pressure and how do you regulate it.
Is the boost pressure just to do with the Turbo or does it have something to
do with the IP aswell.
Where does this boost pressure generate from and where does it go or stay.
I dont know if the questions make any sense but the're in my head so have to
get rid of them.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Quote,
"It doesn't damage the engine apart from the fact that you are
producing more power than it is designed for."
???
--
Regards,
Clive Marks
Home: +44 1293 514600
Mobile: +44 7821 491897
Crawley, West Sussex, UK.
 
G

Guest

Guest
John,
The Turbo on your engine is used to force more air to fuel
mixture into your engine, so giving an increase in performance.
Imagine the turbo as a fan blowing air. The faster the fan speed, the
more air is blown. With a turbo the air is measured in PSI, the higher
the PSI the more fuel/air mixture goes into the engine and the more
power comes out. With a turbo the forced air is measured in PSI.
The turbo is a fan driven by the exhaust gases that is coupled to
another fan that pushes air into the engine, rather than letting air
be sucked in naturally.
The figure of 11 is an approximation, derived from reading the
LCOOL.org website. This site is probably the best one for cruiser
info. Go to 'www.LCOOL.org' and read up the turbo information on the
80 section. These guys quote 10, 11 and 12 PSI.
The boost pressure is purely to do with the turbo.
Testing the boost pressure is done by putting a pressure gauge
on the turbo or manifold, I am not sure exactly where as I have not
done it. There are adjustments on the turbo for increasing and
decreasing the boost pressure.
The next one that you will come across is the waste gate setting.
This is a small relief valve that wastes any excess pressure to
atmosphere.
Turbos, while not being a complex piece of kit, can do your
engine a lot of harm if set up incorrectly.
A turbo spins at several thousand RPM, faster than your engine,
and gets hot in the process. The turbo continues to spin when the
engine shuts down, hence the need to let the engine idle for a minute
or so if you have been booting it a bit. The turbo needs to cool a bit
and the lubrication system needs to catch up.
Regards,
Clive Marks
Home: +44 1293 514600
Mobile: +44 7821 491897
Crawley, West Sussex, UK.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Guy's,
Contrary to a petrol big boost is not a diesel killer (I know this takes
some getting your head around, big boost can be a engine saver whereas
on a petrol it is a killer) big fuel is (very different to a petrol
engine, where big fuel is a engine saver). OK you may ask what the hell
that makes no sense.
petrols require a air fuel ratio of about 14.5:1 is std and on a turbo
at full power may go as rich as 10:1.
Diesels run with excess air alway's so at idle the air fuel ratio maybe
100:1 (emmisions regs have changed this as excess air encourages NOx
production) at full power this may decrease to 22:1 so if you leave the
fuel setting alone and increase the boost say 5psi then the A/F may
change to 27:1 i.e. much leaner hence the pyro temp drops.
If you decrease the boost 5 psi then the A/F may change to 17:1 and the
pyro will go through the roof and the engine die. A quick fix to reduce
excess pyro temps on a diesel if you don't want to defuel it is to
increase the boost.
Boost is not a engine killer big boost and big fuel maybe but not big
boost alone.
Exhaust manifold backpressure and effective intercooling and compressor
efficency all come into the equation at high boost but that is a much
more complicated scenario to discuss.
Benoit 19psi (1.3 bar) sounds a bit high but I would be completely
comfortable with 15psi on a 1HD-FT with Maartens turbo but not a FACTORY
turbo as it will shed exhaust wheel blades.
Cheers,
Craig.
Clive Marks wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Thanks Clive and welcome back Craig how is it going.
I do look at the other forums and the treads but as soon as it gets too
technical im lost and lose interest as I dont have a bog what they are on
about but I can easly take it in when its explained with me in mind.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
Clive
that's what the turbo guy said: it is not good for the engine either for the
turbo-and he will try to solve it out on Thursday-something about the
Westgate...he said the boost pressure should be between 0.8 and 0.9
cheers
Lubo
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Lubo,
With Maartens turbo I would lean towards 0.9-1.1 bar.
Cheers,
Craig.
Lubo wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Craig!!!!!!!!!!
how nice hearing from you again :)))))))
as long as I remember you have that Maartens turbo so can you tell me please
is there any parts on the Westgate that make the turbo to be so open? the
turbo guy told me that this was mounted either from AAI or from Toyota(they
fit the turbo ) and means that this 'things(I don't know the English word
:-( ) should not be there and that is what makes the turbo going so high
and he should mount a wastage opener but it wasn't necessary cause he
couldn't have the higher pressure under 1.0 ....
so I'm bit of confused: maybe Maartens turbo is as it is and he doesn't know
much about it and maybe trying to make it as
the original...ahhhhhhhhhh I feel I get in trouble...again ....the worst is
that AAI are not available before Monday for consult!!!!
cheers
Lubo
PS:I think I found out the missing word for the things put on the Westgate:
packing? or washer?
Lubo
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Clive
As you notice I have AAI turbo-maybe those quotes from LCOOL.org do not
apply in my case?
cheers
Lubo
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Malcolm,
The boost thing is a little more complex as there is a boost compensator
on the injection pump that to a degree controls fuling relative to boost.
In regards petrol you are spot on. Now with wide band oxygen sensors you
can run leaner mixtures at full power as the engine management is still
running in a closed loop versus open loop at full power as in the past
with narrow band oxygen sensors.
Regards,
Craig.
Malcolm Bagley wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
That's very interesting - haven't thought too much about diesel AF ratios.
As a synopsis then, if the washers on the wastegate are increasing the boost
and they are removed and reduce boost (and air) the A/F will become richer
which is bad, if the engine already has black smoke it is on the rich side
so further enrichment is likely to be a bad thing? That right Craig?
But with petrol an over rich mixture is OK - the additional fuel past
stoimetric A/F ratio (14.7:1) can't be burnt as there isn't enough oxygen so
the additional fuel acts as a coolant, sort of expensive one and not great
for the environment! (Craig will hopefully correct me if I am wrong)
Malcolm
Stafford (UK)
FJ45 '75 & FJ45 '76
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 06 November 2007 20:41
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Smoke
Hi Guy's,
Contrary to a petrol big boost is not a diesel killer (I know this takes
some getting your head around, big boost can be a engine saver whereas
on a petrol it is a killer) big fuel is (very different to a petrol
engine, where big fuel is a engine saver). OK you may ask what the hell
that makes no sense.
petrols require a air fuel ratio of about 14.5:1 is std and on a turbo
at full power may go as rich as 10:1.
Diesels run with excess air alway's so at idle the air fuel ratio maybe
100:1 (emmisions regs have changed this as excess air encourages NOx
production) at full power this may decrease to 22:1 so if you leave the
fuel setting alone and increase the boost say 5psi then the A/F may
change to 27:1 i.e. much leaner hence the pyro temp drops.
If you decrease the boost 5 psi then the A/F may change to 17:1 and the
pyro will go through the roof and the engine die. A quick fix to reduce
excess pyro temps on a diesel if you don't want to defuel it is to
increase the boost.
Boost is not a engine killer big boost and big fuel maybe but not big
boost alone.
Exhaust manifold backpressure and effective intercooling and compressor
efficency all come into the equation at high boost but that is a much
more complicated scenario to discuss.
Benoit 19psi (1.3 bar) sounds a bit high but I would be completely
comfortable with 15psi on a 1HD-FT with Maartens turbo but not a FACTORY
turbo as it will shed exhaust wheel blades.
Cheers,
Craig.
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19:11
 
G

Guest

Guest
I do not remember how much more pression Maarten say his turbo give.
But I do think I will take his advice, even Julien says Maarten is a
big brain.
My 80 is still not fixed. I am drive the Range V8 to work so not have
to drive Yaris !
 
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