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The people have spoken

P
grantw said:
Read through this ... "no deal" wasn't actually ever an option.

https://threader.app/thread/1113547733300842497

Summary towards the end:
"Now if you’re right we voted for no deal, it means the voters ignored the law, the ballot slip, the government leaflet, the Prime minister, the rest of the debate, and pretty much everything. "

I know some of you want to leave at all and any costs - but it certainly wasn't what was on offer.
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People voted to leave the eu.
Whether that was with a deal or not, they voted leave. The balance of probability was that the eu would give us a severe spanking so leaving without a deal was always a possibility.
Piers Morgan is an cxxx and failed journalist thanks to his grotesquely immoral behaviour who has nothing of value to say. On the rare occasions something sensible comes out of his mouth it’s just the law of averages compensating for all the shit he talks the rest of the time.
Not only would I not piss in him if he was on fire, is put a bit of extra fuel on!
 
I clearly remember where i was sat with a friend having a pint must have been around 25 years ago discussing the EU or Euro and how it was the third world war being fought and won with ink , and we were on the losing side this time .

Had i been asked then or at any time since i would have voted out , so in my case anyway the lies told on both sides of the debate since the phrase "Brexit" became commonplace did not influence my choice at all .

The shambles we are seeing now in parliament , for me , shows very clearly indeed i was right to vote out because the democratic pantomime has to end . Rule takers cannot lead .

I voted for Christmas and the turkeys don't like it .

Deal or no deal , damage or limitation i really don't care , but its absolutely imperative that they do not tie us into something that will compromise the next government , who of course will be a failure because they can only be survivors of the turkey slaughter .

But maybe the next generation of gov might give us a leader who is worthy of at least some respect .
 
Chris said:
As a PS I didn't vote to leave. I didn't vote to stay. But I did vote. I voted not to leave. Ahh haa you say, semantics. Nope. I wasn't frightened of change, reluctant to embrace a new dawn etc; I simply knew what a f***** complete f*** up leaving would actually be and that the process - not the outcome, would be damaging to everyone. Should have had a tenner on that one. As has been said in the few posts I have read what ever you voted for, I am sure no one voted for this! I see people saying, 'oh just get on with it' Trouble is that you can't. Even if we just walked away, we'd still have to pack our bags (metaphorically) and even that's not straight forward. Anyone who thought that leaving would be dead simple (regardless of motive) needs to see a specialist. :icon-ugeek:
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I agree, but i suspect most thought the battle would be with EU leaders. Not our own politicians!

Still. Throughout history, any cause that has been worth fighting for has never come easy..
 
Ok.. full Irish hat on...

Britain conquered 1/3rd of all the countries on the planet at one time or another. These countries were stripped of resources, their people oppressed at best.. banished and murdered at worst, and many had to resort to violence to fight for independence as they had no other choice. It really bothers me when the E.U are described as overlords, dictators and oppressors to a country who only relinquished the empire in 1947, leaving a mess in it's wake. Partition of India anybody? (Interesting comparison to some current MPs debating a hard or soft border on an island they have never stood on)

Want to leave... Fine.. not happy with E.U policy.. Fine.. want to reclaim full sovereignty.. fine (because the sovereign government is performing so well) but please don't talk about oppression or foreign power.. I'm not sure it is what you think it is

Ok continue...
 
I should qualify that my rant was in response to some lively debate I have seen in a few places, not just here.
 
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Bob said:
Ok.. full Irish hat on...

Britain conquered 1/3rd of all the countries on the planet at one time or another. These countries were stripped of resources, their people oppressed at best.. banished and murdered at worst, and many had to resort to violence to fight for independence as they had no other choice. It really bothers me when the E.U are described as overlords, dictators and oppressors to a country who only relinquished the empire in 1947, leaving a mess in it's wake. Partition of India anybody? (Interesting comparison to some current MPs debating a hard or soft border on an island they have never stood on)

Want to leave... Fine.. not happy with E.U policy.. Fine.. want to reclaim full sovereignty.. fine (because the sovereign government is performing so well) but please don't talk about oppression or foreign power.. I'm not sure it is what you think it is

Ok continue...
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Some nations didn't get their Independence from Britain in 1947 and had to fight to get it much later than 1947 .
 
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Correct of course Tony, I used it as a general milestone but very many were under British rule beyond that. Some still are...
 
Bob said:
Ok.. full Irish hat on...

Britain conquered 1/3rd of all the countries on the planet at one time or another. These countries were stripped of resources, their people oppressed at best.. banished and murdered at worst, and many had to resort to violence to fight for independence as they had no other choice. It really bothers me when the E.U are described as overlords, dictators and oppressors to a country who only relinquished the empire in 1947, leaving a mess in it's wake. Partition of India anybody? (Interesting comparison to some current MPs debating a hard or soft border on an island they have never stood on)

Want to leave... Fine.. not happy with E.U policy.. Fine.. want to reclaim full sovereignty.. fine (because the sovereign government is performing so well) but please don't talk about oppression or foreign power.. I'm not sure it is what you think it is

Ok continue...
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I think maybe you need to look at the behaviour of the other colonial countries that make up the EU such as France, Spain, Holland, Belgium etc. Their records were considerably worse than Britain’s.

Which countries exactly did we ‘strip of resources’?

With regards to Ireland, I believe the Irish Protestants asked us to intervene.

Then you may like to look at the abolitionists. A movement lead by the British, but resisted heavily by other colonial nations, especially France, who also had possibly the bloodiest, messiest end of their colonial power of all as they desperately tried to cling on to it until late in the 20th century.

Did someone mention oppression?
 
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Of course, the British just sailed the seas singing shantys and drinking tea with the locals wherever they went. It's absolutely fair to say that none of the European colonial powers can look back in glory at their exploits. But to suggest that the British were not that bad is an insult to history. Ireland was mightily stripped of resources, even when the people were dying of starvation, grain, meat and live animals were continually exported to 'the mainland' There's even songs about that. Then there's the total removal of manufacturing from India to feed the industrial revolution. I could go on.. and on. As for the comment about Irish Protestants...

I don't wish to derail the thread totally so I'll leave my original point as it still stands. Back to Brexit, or more accurately, the lack thereof
 
In some good news, I cashed in all my vouchers and have put in a £450 order for Belgian beer. Hoping to have it delivered in the coming week. So should be set for a few months :) 11 cases.... Maybe a month more than a few months.
 
Bob said:
Of course, the British just sailed the seas singing shantys and drinking tea with the locals wherever they went. It's absolutely fair to say that none of the European colonial powers can look back in glory at their exploits. But to suggest that the British were not that bad is an insult to history. Ireland was mightily stripped of resources, even when the people were dying of starvation, grain, meat and live animals were continually exported to 'the mainland' There's even songs about that. Then there's the total removal of manufacturing from India to feed the industrial revolution. I could go on.. and on. As for the comment about Irish Protestants...

I don't wish to derail the thread totally so I'll leave my original point as it still stands. Back to Brexit, or more accurately, the lack thereof
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The Fields of Athenry , springs to mind . makes one cry listening to it .
 
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moggy1968 said:
Which countries exactly did we ‘strip of resources’?
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Where to start ? Land appropriation in the British Empire was rife, with little profit going to the countries involved. The abolition of slavery was strongly resisted in Britain, the reparations paid by the British government to slave owners paid for a lot of infrastructure (investment in railways etc) in Victorian times.

moggy1968 said:
With regards to Ireland, I believe the Irish Protestants asked us to intervene.
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The RUC had asked for reinforcement, but it was ordered by Roy Hattersley (Defence Minister) in response to a plea after protestant marchers and the B Specials were attacking catholics in Londonderry. A quote from his memoirs:

"Backed by the Prime Minister, I continued to resist the Chief Constable’s request. But a week later I was told that Bernadette Devlin – not then a Member of Parliament but already famous as the precocious leader of the militant Civil Rights campaigners – wished to speak to me urgently. She said, in the simplest language, that unless troops were out of their barracks and into Derry City by mid-afternoon, Catholics would be slaughtered. With Bernadette Devlin supporting the Chief Constable, only one decision was possible. I gained Callaghan’s approval, signed the Army Board Order and became ‘the man who sent the army on to the streets of Northern Ireland.' "
 
flint said:
Where to start ? Land appropriation in the British Empire was rife, with little profit going to the countries involved. The abolition of slavery was strongly resisted in Britain, the reparations paid by the British government to slave owners paid for a lot of infrastructure (investment in railways etc) in Victorian times.

.' "
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So we didn’t then. Land appropriation isn’t stripping resources.
Of course there was some resistance to slavery. However those for were a rapidly reducing minority as the abolitionist movement gained ground. There will always be those for and those against something, but the fact remains, Britain led the world in its abolition. The empire has much to be proud of. Yes there were also things that were not good, downright disgraceful actually, but as I have suggested, compared to other colonial powers we didn’t do too badly. People seem to conveniently forget when whining about Britain’s colonial past that other countries were also colonial powers and they conveniently overlook (or usually are entirely ignorant of) the behaviour of those other countries.

Whining about the British empire is a current fashion largely carried out by the ignorant.

I for one am proud of what Britain achieved and the many positive contributions it made to the world.
It’s a shame others choose to follow the current fashion of being ashamed of their country, whining about it in their rather one dimensional and frequentyly highly selective view of history and ignoring its considerable achievements and contributions to the world.
 
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Bob said:
Of course, the British just sailed the seas singing shantys and drinking tea with the locals wherever they went. It's absolutely fair to say that none of the European colonial powers can look back in glory at their exploits. But to suggest that the British were not that bad is an insult to history. Ireland was mightily stripped of resources, even when the people were dying of starvation, grain, meat and live animals were continually exported to 'the mainland' There's even songs about that. Then there's the total removal of manufacturing from India to feed the industrial revolution. I could go on.. and on. As for the comment about Irish Protestants...

I don't wish to derail the thread totally so I'll leave my original point as it still stands. Back to Brexit, or more accurately, the lack thereof
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Fair point about Ireland.
I didn’t say they were ‘not that bad’ and the rest of this post is also too ridiculous to deserve response.
Sorry, who introduced the thread hijack with an irrelevant and ridiculous post again?
 
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Because there were 2 good things, doesn't make the 6 other bits acceptable.

Ashamed of isn't the same as acceptance of.
 
moggy1968 said:
Whining about the British empire is a current fashion largely carried out by the ignorant.
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I'm not whining about it Moggy, or particularly ashamed of it, no point in that, just trying to be realistic. If you are going to present a defence of your argument, it just helps to get your facts straight. The land appropriation was mainly in order to extract that countries resources, not particularly to improve the lot of its citizens. To see the British Empire just as a benign force for good is to ignore the fact that much of it was gained by force.
 
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