Urgent help please - clutch plate

[Paulsven]

Hi all.

I think I'm losing the plot and could do with some assistance. I've just put the engine back in my collie after rebuilding it. Took hours yesterday trying to get the gearbox in but wondering if I have put the clutch plate in the wrong way round. My plan was to get engine and gearbox connected, pop it in gear to tighten the crank pulley bolt but the crank is just spinning freely even though the gearbox is in 1st. Could I have put the plate in the wrong way round or was my plan to tighten the pulley bolt wrong? What am I missing?

 

[clivehorridge]

I don't know the 90 series, but could it be something simple like the transfer lever being in neutral?

 

[Julian T]

That is very likely Clive, be interested to know if there is anything else that would give similar symptoms.

 

[clivehorridge]

In my experience, limited though it is these days, the centre splines on most clutch plates were offset, so it was impossible to install them the wrong way round because the recess in the flywheel was nowhere near deep enough to accommodate the offset centre spline boss.

 

[Paulsven]

Totally stumped! I must be missing something. I'm not 100% sure but think I managed to get the transfer box in low. Gearbox was in first. Propshaft solid and wouldn't move so surely that means everything was engaged correctly? Crank still turned really easily though.

Have dropped gearbox and transfer box again but am none the wiser!

Was a nightmare getting it all on the first time on my own so not looking forward to doing it all again!

 

[BobMurphy]

Have you replaced the friction plate and pressure plate (cover plate) ??

If so, you should be aware that there are two designs of cover plate, what you need depends on whether you have a flat or recessed flywheel face.

If you have the wrong one the friction plate may not be getting gripped properly (naturally I did it the other way around and couldn't get the pressure plate done up before I realised something was wrong ).

The Friction plate boss is marked (stamped) "Flywheel Side" .

Bob.

 

[Paulsven]

Have you replaced the friction plate and pressure plate (cover plate) ??

If so, you should be aware that there are two designs of cover plate, what you need depends on whether you have a flat or recessed flywheel face.

Hi Bob. It was the same clutch and flywheel that I took off pre rebuild. I did come across one of your posts previously on the matter which is what got me thinking.

I'm battered, bruised, frustrated and totally stumped. Must be something simple but I just can't see it.

My theory is correct though, that when gears engaged the crank shouldn't turn?

Also if transfer box in neutral, prop would still turned so fact it didn't would suggest both gearbox and transfer box engaged?

 

[BobMurphy]

My theory is correct though, that when gears engaged the crank shouldn't turn?

The theory is sound enough.

Is the Clutch Release Bearing free (i.e. there should be a bit of slack at the release lever on the side of the bell housing) ??

What does the clutch pedal feel like when depressed (I know, suicidal - like you ) ??

When the engine is turned, does it feel as though the clutch is slipping or is no clutch apparent - I can't see how, but maybe the input shaft isn't engaged with the splines in the friction plate boss .

As an aside - did you remove the front prop shaft at the front diff and drop the front ARB ?? I found I had to do that to get the gearbox in and out easier (not "easily")??

Bob.

 

[Paulsven]

Typical! Just typed a long reply Bob and doesn't seem to have uploaded!

Just seems to turn as freely as when it was on the engine stand! Bellhousing bolted up ok so assume all was aligned.

Left ARB in place but removed front prop. Gearbox, still connected to transfer box AND loose rear prop when I installed it! Hell of a weight for one person!

Could it just simply be old clutch is worn out? Is marked as Aisin which I've seen all over the engine when rebuilding it, so maybe original clutch?

Perhaps when I released it it was no longer viable? Who knows!

 

[BobMurphy]

Even a worn-out clutch plate would produce some drag .

This has to be something simple .

Are you sure the gearbox is properly mated to the engine with the gearbox input shaft located in the pilot bearing and the splines located in the clutch friction plate ??

Is the clutch cover plate fully tightened down, with the dowels located in their holes and the friction plate properly centred??

Is the Clutch Release Bearing still located in the release arm with its small springs. If it drops off during installation it could jam and release the clutch ??

If so, with the prop shafts attached, the Gearbox in 1st gear and the Transfer box in 'low' you should be able to tighten the crankshaft nut.

If its all turning freely then one of the above isn't engaged properly.

Re-check that the Transfer Lever and Gear Lever are correctly installed - its possible to put the Transfer Lever in and miss the selectors (DAMHIK ).

All very puzzling.

Bob.

 

[Shayne]

I drove mine with a ruined clutch until it stopped and it went from drivable if i was gentle with the accelerator pedal to no drive at all in about 5 miles .

 

[Paulsven]

Ok so I took it all out and have redone it! It turns out my theory is not correct! With everything in gear it turns out turning the crank actually just moves the vehicle and really flipping easily! Think it may have all been aligned properly the first time, however all was not that bad as it turns out there was no spigot bearing fitted! I just put back what was there so whoever put the last clutch in forgot it!

Lesson 1 - don't just trust what the person before you has done.
Lesson 2 - I now know what a spigot bearing is.
Lesson 3 - the transmission mount only fits one way! Stumped me for ages that it didn't line up.
Lesson 4 - you can't tighten the crank bolt this way as it just drives the wheels really easily! Not sure how I'm going to tighten it now especially not to 360Nm!

This is my first engine rebuild, first clutch, first pretty much everything so learning a lot as I go but mostly painfully!

Any ideas on crank bolt anyone? I guess it won't just tighten itself over time!

 

[Towpack]

Select top gear and try tightening the crank bolt. There will be much more resistance from transmission than in bottom gear.

 

[clivehorridge]

Select top gear and try tightening the crank bolt. There will be much more resistance from transmission than in bottom gear.

Yep, second that and it may help to have someone standing on the brake pedal on the final torque setting!

Glad you have it sorted. I'm surprised you didn't have severe judder or some other nasty symptoms if the spigot bearing was missing

 

[Steve H]

When I did my crankshaft pulley I had a piece of 1 inch angle iron loosely screwed to a bit of wood and used this to jam the teeth on the fly wheel ring gear in the starter motor hole., The angle was placed upside down so both edges where in the teeth and the wood went against the side of the mounting hole so as not to damage the sides of the starter housing. This worked both for undoing and tightening the pulley as mine is an auto gearbox. HTH

 

[BobMurphy]

as it turns out there was no spigot bearing fitted! I just put back what was there so whoever put the last clutch in forgot it!

Wow! I'm surprised you didn't get tremendous judder when de-clutching.

They are not easy to remove - I had to make a Slide Hammer out of a 12mm Rawlbolt to change mine!

I am loathe to suggest jamming the starter ring gear - but that's what I've done in the past .

High gears, chock the wheels, get someone on the brakes, even put a heavy tow rope from the towbar to another vehicle. Try a strap wrench around the crankshaft pulley and lean it on the chassis - loads of bodgery options there .

Bob.

 

[Paulsven]

Wow! I'm surprised you didn't get tremendous judder when de-clutching.

They are not easy to remove - I had to make a Slide Hammer out of a 12mm Rawlbolt to change mine!

I am loathe to suggest jamming the starter ring gear - but that's what I've done in the past .

High gears, chock the wheels, get someone on the brakes, even put a heavy tow rope from the towbar to another vehicle. Try a strap wrench around the crankshaft pulley and lean it on the chassis - loads of bodgery options there .

Bob.

Believe it or not Bob I've never actually driven it yet! Probably a good job with all the issues I've found with it!

It's been quite a project but nearing the end. Let's just hope it's all worth it in the end!

 

[Pat]

You will get a lot of satisfaction when you have it back on the road.you've got guts doing the job basically by yourself.Pat

 

[Beno]

Would it help to apply the handbrake at all.

 

[clivehorridge]

Would it help to apply the handbrake at all.

IMO (and my handbrake "works") it may help, but it would be almost ineffective on its own. A bit of everything together is the way to go, wheel chocks, footbrake, tether strapping, handbrake.

The best solution is an "engine lock" such as a tailor made flywheel ring-gear locking device or some similar ad hoc device.

But as said, it's not such a high torque, in any event.