Would you surrender?

[frank rabbets]

So you would choose 1. Be turned to rubble and ruled by Russia. That is what is happening at the moment. And it looks like Russia will prevail. Ukrainians will have no buildings or lifestyle left.

 

[Shayne]

Follow the money and the West won't allow Russia to prevail , all the questions raised by sanctioning Russia could be answered by the Ukraine though it will take a few years of heavy investment . The propaganda machine is hard at work so we will never know what's really happening , but Germany was once reduced to ashes .

Even minus anything like national pride i reckon i would choose to fight for what i felt was right against what i felt was wrong and when you see the streets you roamed as a child reduced to rubble the choice would be a very simple one .

Does anyone truly believe that the Ukraine successfully turned the opposition whilst vastly outnumbered and with only 10% of their foes military budget ?

History is always written by the winners so certain legalities can be ignored .

 

[GeekOKent]

There is definitely a lot of 'control the message' and 'own the narrative' going on.

But you can't get away from the fact that people are dying, for reasons no one knows for sure. And the only response from 'the rest' is economic and political pressure. What I don't get is why that economic and political pressure couldn't be applied before people started dying.

To me, this is the end of the old guard western influence and where someone else takes over and runs the next couple of hundred years. Things could change, so never say never. But the way it looks, right now, changes coming.

Africa continue to lose. South America and Australia continue to remain only statistically relevant.

Takeaway? Travel, now, when you still can. Our next generation (s) are going to be much more constrained.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Ukraine has been owned and administered by half a dozen countries. They're just Russians who speak a different dialect as far as I'm concerned and half the population is inclined towards Russia anyway.
The problem is there is money to be made in the mayhem and you can be certain who the winners will be, In the short term arms companies and investment funds. In the middle/long term corporations that deal with the reconstruction.
We have a sack of sh*t as a PM who models himself as a modern day Churchill, so he will happily squander your taxes which are better spent at home, supporting something that has nothing to do with us. Just so he can leave his mark on history and get a few photo opportunities and chances to make some inspiring speeches.
when lets face it even during his finest hour he's a skid mark on history at best.

 

[chadr]

There is no doubt that the Ukrainians have had massive support from the West, however I don't think that there are significant numbers of non-Ukrainian fighters on the ground - to say that would be to vastly underestimate and dishonour what the Ukrainian forces have achieved - they've been very smart and fought to their strengths.

The Russians have been poor tactically and situationally - I mean any army commander that goes into the Red Forest and asks his troops to dig trenches - I mean WTF!!! They have also been let down by poor equipment - all those years of underinvestment and corruption by those in power, coming home to roost. For example, halfway through a major offensive movement is not the best time to discover that your vehicles tyres are not up to standard or that your supply chain simply can't deliver.

I doubt that this will cause a drastic change - yes there will some disruption, probably for a few years and then it will be back to the status quo. It was ever thus.

 

[Shayne]

Globalization brought us here , exporting problems and importing solutions inevitably had to come full circle one day .

 

[Lucky]

Frank Rabbets
Did you read my reply to your post?
If you do not comprehend my reply read some if the other replies that do not agree with you.

{Edited by admin}

 

[frank rabbets]

Lucky.
I read your reply to my post.
I did comprehend your reply and all others.
I did O levels A levels and have a University degree in Estate Management. Also a retired member of the RICS.
I can't think why you would choose to fight the Russians and end up dead together with all your family and have your country turned to dust when the alternative would have been to "surrender" and live safely under Russian rule like most of the rest of Russia. Unpalatable but realistic.

I was not brought up in the Neanderthal period where might meant right. Sometimes we have to think with our head and not our biceps.

I think Russia is going to win unfortunately. Their leaders have no conscience and will stand off and shell and missile the whole of Ukraine.

Gday.

 

[Dave_S]

And again we descend into personal insults.

FFS this is supposed to be a Landcruiser forum, and we all share a common interest, so let's keep it civil.

ADMINS....

 

[Juddian]

Dave-S is right, but sadly personal insults in online discussions have become a regular feature over the last 2+ years.

Those who don't believe or agree with the narrative of the moment, a narrative which usually suits those of huge wealth and power and wishing ever more of it addicted to such things as they are, so catch phrases such as 'build back better' (there have been dozens) filter down, the usual suspect politicians are saying them as well as mainstream media spokespersons ( i refuse to call them journalists because that's another disappearing trade), some of whom got a bit carried away with their covid rhetoric calling hysterically for various punishments for the unvaxxed or as we became labelled 'vaccine deniers' plus the usual other assorted insults.

There are many people who don't believe the Ukraine narrative nor the msm reports nor think the new heros are quite as descibed, but to save unpleasantness tend to avoid saying too much in discussions like this, i'm one of them.
It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things really, nothing said here will make a scrap of difference to the long standing reasons why Putin has taken the actions he has, nor to the outcome.

We are in trouble in the west, free speech is dying and those who insult those disgreeing with the narrative of the moment are doing their bit to hasten ever more censorship because those who don't agree can't be arsed to offer an alternative viewpoint knowing any replies are likely to include the terms conspiracy theorist, tin foil hat, Putin apologist etc, which is fine if all that's required is an echo chamber.
What's more worrying is when the Ukraine narrative reaches it's pre planned crescendo will the result be nuclear strikes with public backing by people convinced Russia is actually weak.

For anyone interested in an alternative view of what's gone on a persual of the two appropriate articles on this site would be worth half an hour of your time The Postil Magazine – Uniting Wisdom With The Soul – Vivida Vis Animi - [Leaving Land Cruiser Club]

 

[Higgy]

Padlock Time

 

[chapel gate]

wow, with some of the comments here, god forbid Britain ever faces invasion.

yep, we surrender. i dont want my lawn damaging and ive just polished my audi. hand me that "learn russian in two weeks CD"

although it will probable be a audio cassette the size of a one stop frozen macaroni cheese..

 

[frank rabbets]

It's not just the lawn Mike. It's your way of life and your friends, families and cities turned to dust.

 

[Shayne]

I get what your saying Frank , like why sacrifice yourself for a lost cause , or else there would be no such word as surrender . But first you have to accept that all is lost .

Home is more than bricks and mortar , not many leave never to return , my grandfather liked to sing when he'd had a few beers "these are my hills these are my mountains"

 

[chapel gate]

my grandfather and great grandfather would disagree with you frank.

 

[TonyP]

Sooner or later these threads always sink to the lowest common denominator.

Any further personal jibes and I'll lock the thread and ban the offender, regardless of who it is.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

It's not a NATO country why are we even bothered ? So Russia takes back something that was theirs in my lifetime. It's not a big deal.
Everyone is behaving as if the red army has marched into Berlin again or are about to, that's simply not the case. They are securing a buffer between themselves and the newly joined NATO members who by now have NATO bases and NATO weapons and armaments. (No wonder the Ukrainians have done a good job of surviving the onslaught - We've spent the last decade training them).
During the Cuban missile crisis the USA was aggrieved by Russian weapons being moved to close proximity to the US mainland. Why now when Russia is aggrieved by exactly the same thing happening on their Western border should anyone be surprised at their actions.
Making out that it is some existential threat to Western Europe is a joke, It simply isn't. They'll take what was theirs back and stop on the border. Now thanks to the injection of large amounts of weapons into opposing them, the war will drag on, potentially into a decade long proxy war where nothing will be achieved. (Well apart from the aforementioned huge profits for those well out of earshot of the cannons).
Everyone is behaving as if they are encroaching on "our" territory. The truth of the matter is and exactly as it's shown on the map i posted. "We" have spent the last decade schmoozing with their former territories and integrating them into the EU and NATO and it's "we" who are encroaching on their territory.

 

[frank rabbets]

I thought all was lost when Russia invaded. That was the cause of my post. Russia has had it's setbacks but this is going to be a much bigger imbalance than WW2.

 

[chadr]

Just a few points:

I suppose the Ukrainian people don't get to have a say in any of this?

Re: Cuba - yes but I don't recall the USA invading Cuba and trying to take it over? Nor did they attack Cuba with middle strikes on its cities.

"They're only taking back what used to belong to them" - We (UK) might use that argument to take back control of half the world! Don't let the Italians or Mongolians know - they'll all want a piece of the action.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Didn't the USA launch an attack at the bay of pigs ?
It wouldn't be taking back control, that would be the Aboriginals repossessing Australia or something similar. Ukraine didn't exist till 1991. There's cruisers on this forum older than that.
Ukrainians do have a say, they can fight or fold. It isn't anything to do with us or anyone else for that matter.
Sure if Rome can have a crack at it or the Mongols, good luck to them. But that is really ancient history as is the Empire.

They aren't NATO we shouldn't get involved. If you draw a line in the sand then it is only when that line is crossed can you respond accordingly. The line was drawn with NATO members old and new. Russia has NOT attacked a NATO member state. This isn't comparable to the Falklands or Gibraltar or anything remotely like that. This has nothing to do with us as a nation.
Ukraine is having what should be considered a civil war, leave em to it. The idea of it being a precursor to the collapse of western Europe is fantastical. This isn't the annexation of the Sudetenland or the invasion of Poland.

Yeah it's crap for the people living there but then hey ho we aren't getting 350 quid a month to take in someone from the Yemen/Central African Repuplic / Congo / Libya/ Myannmar.
Lets show ALL the dead kids and flattened cities and put little flags on our Facebook for them too.

If we are going to spend public money supplying arms to the Ukraine. We should put our money where our mouth is and send in the troops and print the conscription papers too, while we're at it.
Everyone seems to have got their gander up i'm sure there'll be tens of thousand of volunteers instead of a couple of thrill seekers as there are now.