Use of bow shackles when setting a winch line

[Chris]

Ok so I have been watching quite a bit of You Tube this week looking at splicing and winching, all in connection with my new winch ropes. What I noticed throughout was the way the presenters set the lines and the use of the shackle when connecting up the whole rig. I have never heard nor had a discussion about this so I thought I'd start one.

Here is what almost all of them do.



My view is that this is not only not the way, but it's actually the WRONG way. Feel free to start a fight. The strap is fine, but the hook is placing all of the load in one small area on the pin. It can and will slide from side to side under load and damage the pin. Any damage or distortion to the pin makes getting it apart very difficult and may render the item scrap. I have never set shackles like this. If the load is significant, it can also sprain your shackle if it pulls against the pin holes. As we all know, you undo your pin a half turn or so to prevent it jamming. Well this actually allows the frame of the shackle to sprain into that gap.

I do them like this -



OK it's the wrong sized strap yada yada - oh and it's not connected to a winch either but you get the idea. The softer strap is now spreading the load across the pin and won't move under load. The hook will now self centre in the bow. If it wants to move laterally, it can, but it's not going to cause damage to the vital bit, the pin. Now, sometimes your hook won't slip over the pin and I see people taking the pin out and putting it back through the middle of the hook. So, if you can't get the pin out because you have damaged it, how you gonna get your hook off?

So someone convince me that the other way around is better?

Or do I need to get out more.

More excellent tips from the winching channel soon.

Chris

 

[J66P]

I think you need to get out more because I totally agree with you and its the way I always use mine for exactly the same reasons

 

[Captainoversteer]

All sounds petty sensible to me Chris! Glad Im not the only one who spends time thinking about stuff like this
I'm currently using a tree strop with hook at one end and an eye on the other,whilst not ideal,it certainly is quicker and easier.
Something like this- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150827778466?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

[clivehorridge]

I take your point and can't argue with the logic Chris.

One thing not to forget (and I know this doesn't count cos you were just running a demo) the line will fail at the weakest point. So in the set-up as photographed, the likely fail point would be the tichy little pin they use on those crappy hooks!

Maybe it's deliberate as a safety feature

It's hard to find a decent hook with a spring clasp that doesn't go rusty at the first sign of rain and then go sideways when it feels like.

Another tip when hooking to a shackle that's fixed to a snach-point, use the hook with the open face upward. Then if it should snap, it's likely to bury itself in the ground as opposed to taking off and flying through the air. They have been known to try to "straighten" then they break, with a bang, quite a big one!

I don't like hooks much at all to be honest, but they're handy!

 

[Chris]

That's just a hook out of my parts bin and not one off any of my vehicles Clive. However, you have to remember that shear strength of something across a very small gap can be enormous.

But no, it's not a hook I use.

So not just me that does it like this. So why have I never come across any discussion or tip anywhere about doing it like this? I have seen such rubbish on the Toob recently. OK plasma ropes when they fail, drop to the ground or at least don't have any energy in them. But to be safe use a winch blanket. Why? If they're safe they're safe. If they're not then say so and use a winch sail because it's necessary. It's all about fear of liability. But whilst they're telling you this, they're rigging up badly.

 

[Chas]

OK plasma ropes when they fail, drop to the ground or at least don't have any energy in them.

Plasma ropes when they fail do NOT drop straight to the ground, ask Ian Rubie (Piccadilly woods), they may not have any energy in them but I wouldn't lke to be slapped by one.

 

[Chris]

Chas, I don't need to ask Ian, I have snapped three myself and seen many more fail. I consider them safe. No I wouldn't want to be slapped by one but that's all it would be.

 

[Captainoversteer]

Chas, I don't need to ask Ian, I have snapped three myself and seen many more fail. I consider them safe. No I wouldn't want to be slapped by one but that's all it would be.

Ive done a lot of rope snapping,definately wouldnt want to be slapped by one but reckon chances of survival,body intact are pretty good?
The only real concern is when you're 'hanging off' something and it lets go!

 

[Rich Sims]

Heres my 2 pence worth,

In my experience the less metal work involved with winching the better so where ever possible put the strap straight into the hook, there can always be a bit of kenetic energy in any rope so the less metalwork flying through the air the better.

 

[Paddler Ed]

Metal to metal is a no go in climbing, so I'd skip the bow shackle in that system... Beyond that I've got no other input!

In Climbing we only use metal to metal when it's to attach a 'biner to a belay device or a piece of protection; you wouldn't connect a 'biner to another 'biner. If you were doing a belay set up, the connection between biner's would be tape/rope/sling (or in some cases a rated chain on a permanent set up)

 

[Doodle]

How do you avoid metal to metal contact when hooking onto the vehicle though? (Shackle through recovery loop).

On my road/track cars I always ran a TRS tow strap, but that's not going to cut it for 4x4 recovery.

 

[Marius De Kock]

Chris

As I'm very new to recovery topic I would like to know how to connect a recovery hook to my ARB bumper so it's safe and correct. I found the following photos on the web but it look like your first photos in that it will put a lot of force on the pin.

 

[Chris]

Marius nothing wrong with that as long as mounting point is wide enough to spread load on the pin. Some are very narrow. Now in this picture you could have a shackle on there that doesn't need to come off so se damage might be acceptable
But you could also have points that the hook could go through without the shackle

Energy in synthetic ropes is such that if the mounting point failed on the stricken vehicle the hook would not catapult through the air. If the rope snapped them the hook would still be attached to the stricken vehicle wouldn't it.

I didn't say this was the best way to rig a line I said it was the best way to join a hook to a shackle

In my picture I could just have put the hook on the strap! But that wasn't the point I was making

 

[warrenpfo]

Found this, not sure if its much help but was an interesting read

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Recovery/

 

[Marius De Kock]

OK I'm (Caron ?)back in the house after working on the White truck. The rain started to come down again here in West Sussex. Summer what summer?

Chris.

Thanks for the information. The ARB bumpers mounting points are not very wide in my opion hance the question as I'm stile learning all about recovery and the tools to use. Very important is that I'm not trying to criticize what you have posted as the correct way of using a shackle at all. Thanks Chris.

Warren.

Thanks for the link. I'll have a read as it looks very interesting and will hopefully teach me more about the subject. Thanks Warren.


I don't want to hijack this thread but very soon I will need to ask the big question. What recovery gear to buy?

Thanks guys.

 

[Chris]

I agree, they do look a little thin. I shall have to think about that when I put mine on the new truck. I might have to come up with something different. I don't really want to start welding and drilling etc, but I might have to get a bit creative there. That thin blade profile is presisely what I am after avoiding in terms of concentrating the pressure on a single point. Now my new shackles are 22 mm on the pin and quite a narrow throat so is there a real chance of distorting the pin? I think that there is. I could pack the pin so that the attainment point is moved over to one side of the throat I suppose.

Hmm. Thinking.

 

[Marius De Kock]

Please think for us.

 

[Chris]

Of course, but in truth I think you are unlike to get as stuck as I do. This discussion really only means something when you are pulling so hard that you can see the chassis getting longer!

I pulled the winch bumper off a Disco this weekend. What a load of rubbish that was.

 

[Chris]

Right Marius. Sorry it took me so long. I'm back and it's sorted. All I'll do is make an adaptor like this... It bolts onto the bumper and gives you an nice attachment point that's thicker than the original

 

[Gav Peter]

3D modelling as well now Chris - Ooos a clever boy den

Nice & simple solution